Silver hallmark- can someone help with identification please

They seem to be hiding, I haven't been able to locate them yet.

The Yad also looks out of place, a different style to the rest. It may not be original.

We need better pics of the marks. This could be a marriage, possibly between old and fake.

 

Don't you just hate it when that happens?



Still not seeing it though. I see scrolling leaves.

 

Look at Moses.

 

Truthfully, suspect this is a complete fantasy object, with whoever created it using a fake stamps on the tablets, the Grachev Bros, stamp also used on that coppery bit on the hasp - the letters, spacing, etc. appear to be identical (there should be marks on every single separate precious metal element of the item). The first two marks are the OP's, the other four are variants of genuine Grachev Bros. marks:




Why are the town marks missing from tablets, and why are the assayer and quality marks separated? The three marks would typically have been a stub (troinik), struck together like the examples below (note that if struck separately, a 'notched' quality mark wasn't used):


https://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_assay_variations.html


Where are the other marks on the hasp? They could be hidden underneath, but why bother doing that if you're going to stamp the front of prominent parts (and again, why are they even stamped on the front?)

Why does the Magen-David on the hasp look like it was cut out of an engine-turned piece?

Why does the weirdly flat hand of the pointer bear only partial marks and one of those incomplete, even though there's plenty of room? It doesn't appear to have a depression at the edge like you'd see if badly struck, but more like the mark was cut off.

The mount on the little strap looks to have solder around the marks - why would that be? Why would those marks differ from the marks on the tablets?

The feet appear to be silver, where are their marks?

Even the wooden piece is 'off' - why would it appear to made of several pieces rather than a single board?


Certainly interesting, in an odd way, but personally, find pretty much everything about this item is just wrong...

~Cheryl

 

Still don't see a dragon, sorry. I see squiggly lines around him that are probably meant to be an indication of the general landscape around Mt Sinai.

 

Again....I respect the critique of this item.......
but, gee golly whizz......a lot of work went into making this , & the more I look at it....the more I like it !!
Just sayin............................................

 

Nothing wrong with that at all, Komo, everyone's tastes are different, but what I see is a somewhat crudely made and kind of weird item, cobbled together to try and cash in on the perceived high value of both antique Russian silver and Judaica. Still wouldn't have cared for the piece, but might have felt just a tiny bit more respect had it been created as an artisan piece, unfortunately it wasn't.

Perhaps the same way you might feel about a faked, and not quite right, First Nations piece, even if others thought it attractive...

~Cheryl

 

Oh Girl........you so get me !!!!!!

 

Thank you guys for all replies.So I understand,that this is a fake piece?If so,whats the point of making such item, first time I came across a musical box of this type

 

not so much a Fake...as the marks may be spurious...making it not by the makers who are purported to have made it !!

 

what does it play ?

 

Not really sure what to say here - have given numerous examples of really serious anomalies on a really odd item, and personally, have no doubt that there is a good deal of fakery present, but have absolutely no idea what genuine piece might have been faked. It just appears to be someone's fantasy creation, assembled from all sorts of bits and pieces, with some added marks that just do not belong together. The point of making a fake Imperial Russian period silver item, that is also Judaica, is quite simply to fool someone into paying a high price - both were/are widely faked, some much more convincingly than this.


Since you haven't identified the song, I haven't addressed the issue of the music box mechanism, because having seen so many supposedly 'Victorian' or 'antique' music boxes that played modern tunes, just knowing the song might have suggested an age (not that mechanisms aren't replaced) - can only say that while it looks to have some age and be of decent quality, have serious doubts that it's of an age or quality to have been placed in an 1894 object made by a Russian firm awarded an Imperial Warrant. That stretched out spring attached to the stop-lever is an indicator that it should have a push/pull or slide operating button on the outside of the piece, but you haven't shown one, suggesting that the mechanism is just one more salvaged bit. The bracket for the winding key is also not anything I can recall seeing before, and while the key appears to have age, suspect it's not original to the mechanism (may have been a clock key).


Perhaps you might share with us where you are located, as well as where and when the item was acquired?


~Cheryl

 

It just appears to be someone's fantasy creation, assembled from all sorts of bits and pieces...........

I've never seen a Yad that small , used in this way.....it's odd.
It's like a collection of Jewish symbols.... prayer book , ten commandments, Moses, yad........so I'd suspect the music could be from Fiddler on the Roof !!!