Please I need thoughts on this

No you wouldn't.

In that case I say, take it to a lab to be tested. A specialised lab can not only date it for you, but even pinpoint the mines the metals were sourced from.

 

Oh yes they would. If it were real, which it isn't, it would have been looted or stolen from a museum. Which means proceedings would have started already to get it back. Our forum is followed all over the world.

I tried to reassure you because you seemed to be scared before. This is from post #4 in your previous thread:

"I'm assuming potential bc stuff doesn't pup up everyday. If so who might come out of the wood work when they see it.. idk

At least my dad was worried. He didn't know who to reach out to about this stuff. I'm scared to reach out without being smart too. I mean he never left this country, everything was shipped. He didn't break any laws I know of"

https://www.antiquers.com/threads/a-possible-ancient-sword.76313/

 

Understood. I was worried then you are correct I had forgot that I posted about that.

It was not looted, that we know of. My Dad never left the USA after losing his job. His friend Ahmad, who lived in Iraq, traveled all over for my Dad in 2008. Ahmad said he found the swords in a village below the hindu kush mountains. Some teens had found them in a cave and Ahmad bought them off the kids and shipped to my Dad. This was after sending many authentic pendants, rings, amulets, gems, to my Dad.

 

I have customs paperwork, a bunch, showing the items were shipped by Ahmad. My Dad was no fool so I believe he did his due diligence and had a good connection with Ahmad. I believe the swords were found in a Mithraeum as well...

 

I haven't read the original thread but it seems Any's idea of getting it tested would be a good one. I'm sure there are ancient artifacts in private collections all over the world so being worried about a country claiming it might not be a concern.
Yes, there is a long historic line of old stuff being faked but there are also stories of the rarest old artifacts turning up in car boot sales.
Personally I think there are limitations to what can be deemed by photos and sometimes collectors need to take a financial plunge and get a conclusive test done, it might not be what you hoped but again it might just be a huge reward.
One more question, have you ever seen another sword like this? ie the same size?
The reason for me asking is the handle would have had to be cast, in fact the whole sword would have had a wooden template (pattern) I very much doubt (if fake) this is the only one made, the amount of work would have been a lot (not impossible)
Did your Dad pay a lot for it?

 

I am in contact with a ISA certified appraiser awaiting him to start this case, more or less. I have talked to many experts and the resounding message I have heard from them (call it confirmation bias if u want) is they can't be SURE. So I am plunging deep into whatever tests can tell a fuller picture.

I do not know exactly what my Dad paid. As far as I am aware, he was paying his friend a salary more or less to look for items. I wish I could get access into his emails between Ahmad but I cannot... but I did find a stack of customs paperwork!

I have not seen a SINGLE sword out there that looks like mine. I have scoured the depths of the internet. None. Besides the golden version. Which again in my opinion, lacks the detail mine has. Now recently I found an oil painting with my swords likeness in the hand of a legend...

I wish I was not on here flailing about. It is nearly impossible to set up an appointment with someone who can confidently look at these items. I don't want this, if real, to disappear in a private collection 100feet underground. If real, it needs to be recorded period. Too much history has been lost and even now in the middle east history is being destroyed. If this is history, not on my watch!

 

Ok, so emails are a recent thing (I didn't know how long your Father had owned it) I think if you think it's genuine then take the time and money to find out.
I once had a suspicion something I had was a good thing and it was a itch I scratched for 7 years until I finally found someone in a prestigious enough position in that field to confirm what I thought I had was what it was.
I will say sometimes it all boils down to a opinion of a "expert" and yes they can be wrong.

 

The same applies to us, few of whom have extensive knowledge of archaeometallurgy. We have provided opinions based on what we can see in your photographs.

There is no way to determine the authenticity of your objects without a metallurgical analysis to see if the composition matches examples known to be ancient (from documented excavations, for example). The analysis would need to be performed by someone with experience in archeological metals, and you will also need to find someone with appropriate knowledge to interpret the results of any analysis.

Quoting myself from one of your previous posts:

Unfortunately, there are few institutions or companies that offer such analytical services in the United States, and it will be difficult to find people with expertise in ancient metallurgy of the middle east/central Asia. You might try contacting the graduate training programs in art and artifact conservation. I believe they sometimes accept privately owned objects as projects for their students, and/or they may be able to suggest other resources. These are the programs most likely to include archeological materials -
https://artconservation.buffalostate.edu/
https://www.queensu.ca/art/art-conservation
https://www.getty.edu/projects/ucla-getty-interdepartmental-program-conservation-cultural-heritage/

You could also look for museums with collections from the relevant regions. Don't ask them to authenticate your objects - few, if any, offer such services - but ask them if they can recommend any companies that could assist you.

These are some other possibilities I have found online -
https://redwoodarchaeometallurgy.com/about-us
https://www.isas.illinois.edu/office_of_the_illinois_state_archaeologist/research/atam

I cannot personally vouch for this company, but it specializes in a variety of archeological (and paleontological) antiquities. They say they do not offer authentication services, but I noticed a relevant warning on their website -
https://timevaultgallery.com/ancient-near-eastern-luristan-swords-for-sale/

"WARNING: There is an increasing number of fake Near Eastern (Luristan) bronze weapons on the market. As fine quality intact, original specimens become more scarce and techniques have become more sophisticated to fake these weapons. We have personally handled numerous extremely well-done fakes with extremely convincing patinas. The degree to which the fakers have been able to replicate patina to disguise their work requires an expert examination by highly experienced individuals. It is common to find very reasonably priced weapons that are made up of part original and part modern components or wholly modern pieces displaying elaborate artificial patinas. All purchases should include from the dealer a written guarantee of authenticity with unconditional and lifetime return policies regarding such guarantee."

 

Dang bro I apricate the time and effort in your response. You are absolutely correct, I have been trying so hard to find a place to produce a XRF report on my sword. Any place I found that does that service, could not fit my sword into their machine. I did receive a XRF reading with a XRF gun at a jewelry recycle place... That info is only so useful.

I will looking into the resources you provided. Truly thanks!

I mean its crazy how hard it is to find a certified expert to put my items in front of. I am willing to travel, pay for time, and pay for testing. Literally no risk to the expert. Time compensated. Yet only birds chirping lol. Maybe the sword has its own plans

 

One more possible resource I meant to include -
https://cmrae.mit.edu/

 

thank you. THANK YOU. I vastly appreciate your guidance.

Every doubt someone as thrown at me I have taken on. I wouldn't still be seeking if every doubt had not been overcome. At least as far as I can earnestly tell. I even purchased my own really cool microscope, for a good deal, to see details better.

I wish a certified expert, and not one that starts with... "I can help but I assure you, you won't like my results". As a few have told me... lIkE oK? Nah. I wish one would take my money. As I said, I think I found one. I am waiting for him to be able to start. Life hits people hard so I'm being patient. I'm not looking for a yes man lol. I'm looking for someone to have a conversation with. To explain why it is a glow stick, not the stun. "Its not hot, its not in the sky, its made of plastic, its not bright, its not even glowing anymore". If that makes sense.. lol.

IN THE MEAN TIME, I'm trying to find more info. That picture was definitely a cool lead, at least. I messaged the artist to see where he got his reference for the sword from. Was it inspired from text? Why is it more like mine than the known one. Could there be more like mine? IF Cyrus the Greats (im assuming his), is his sword in a private collection?? IF not.. uhh? The gold ones, as far as I know, are 5/5. Mine is 1/1, as far as I know.

Stuff that could make me go missing.. I feel. Valid questions tho!

 

I am about to make an email to the MIT lead. I think out of all of them, that is the best start.

 

No, the patina is not fake. It's created. It is insanely easy to make green patina, chemically, on copper. They sell pre-made solutions for it, and you can DIY it. My favorite is vinegar with potato chips!

Lots of things have intentional, modern patinas from chemical reactions. The Statue of Liberty is a good example.

You can patina bronze in different colors. You can create rust (a favorite of art forgers for nails on their paintings). We use these to make fake ancient or old objects for movies and TV on my jobs. It doesn't even take very long.

This has been done for a loooong time on things for decorative looks, and to fool buyers. There are an extreme amount of forgeries of ancient objects which is why you were asked for provenance.

If you believe your swords are real, you should not "train" with them. They would be very fragile. Forgeries, on the other hand...

This right here is a good example that you haven't spent much time studying real artifacts or handcrafted works and their processes. Many, many cultures made decorative and ceremonial artifacts out of gold or precious metals. Most were very thin, even. Hand crafted, as opposed to cast as yours is, has a different look entirely. I also see the gold dagger as clearly bring a more detailed, higher quality, and artistic than yours. It's not a judgement on your love for your father's sword. It's based on a handcrafted item in correct period style, versus a cast decorative item.

I'm trying to understand you here. You found a very modern painting by a living artist, who used a very famous Iranian dagger in his National Museum as his reference. But....you think he based it on a sword your father had before this painting was done? And in a gold color which your sword never was? That timeline doesn't make sense. Explain your thinking, because I'm confused.

Oh, it honestly hurts my heart how much you are trying to make this real for your father. You clearly loved him.

The experts are saying this because they're trying to warn you that you would be wasting your money for them to tell you what we and Reddit did. Your sword is a modern forgery or decorative object. It doesn't look anything like real objects, which you can easily find in museum collections.

But I have a feeling that even if experts tell you this, you're never going to be satisfied. You're always going to hold out hope. I think your father just wanted you to enjoy his collection, as he did. And that's more than enough. Thank you for sharing his things with us.

 

Thank you for your thoughts <3

I loved my Dad so much.

I don't so much want to make it real (obviously it would be nice). I want to know, because he never could. He thought he had something special, based on his relationship with Ahmad. He just started developing dementia before he could fully know.

Again though, I have ancient roman every kind of ring. I have old gemstones, amulets, bracers, pendants. Quite a few items with old Persian writing.

Based on that, the sum of everything. Not even to mention my Dad has 12 US patents. He was a genius for sure. Base on all that, the odds it is real is not 0.

I bet salt and vinegar chip patina would be SO tasty.

 

just for shits & giggles...............

let's talk blades..

your blade and the gold blade carry an almost identical fuller pattern..........

A fuller is a rounded or beveled longitudinal groove or slot along the flat side of a blade (e.g., a sword, knife, or bayonet) that serves to both lighten and stiffen the blade, when considering its reduced weight.

While I can see that the gold blade would be in need of both factors......the fuller on yours is no more than decoration......and you can see this clearly in the painting you use as an example of your sword.
That sword is depicted with the proper fuller for it's time and purpose , one deep central cut taking a lot of weight off that blade and stiffening it to withstand blows in combat...!!

The painter either understood this.....or was using a different sword as his model..!

( in truth , I'm not exactly certain when and where the fuller became commonly used in edged weapons.....) ... @the blacksmith

PS.... a fuller is not a blood groove , even though that term is used often.....in error..

 

@komokwa I noticed that too. The painting appears to have a fuller, new term to me! Thank you. I forgot to hit quote.

Would this blade have a fuller? Seems like it would be.

Also thoughts on the design in this blade? It forms a tesla valve. I imagine when this blade was pulled out of something, so was mucho blood. Based on my knowledge of a tesla valve.

 

ya that would have brought goo out of the wound.....and that is indeed a fuller down the centre ....

not a lot of room on the edge though... to hold a good sharp edge....

 

Your dad had a massive collection, so it's not unreasonable to think some might be real. But Ahmed could have not been an expert, or could have been in on it. We don't know. What we know is what we can see versus extant, documented examples.

Expertise in one thing, doesn't equal expertise in another. Anyone can hold a patent, and that doesn't require genius, but again I make no judgements on your father either way. I've known people who've invented interesting things who were complete dummies in other areas. It only makes sense because you can only spend so much time perfecting your knowledge on so few things.

I think your dad was so lucky to have you to share his interests with. That's all a collector ever wants...to share and be proud of their fun collections. I'm blessed with a few people that let me ramble about my niche collecting and they make me happy every day.

 

First thing to go from corrosion is a sharp edge.

but ya, that goo is gone lol. Crazy thought. I'd love to see a tesla valve blade used on a dummy.

 

I am honored and it has been so excited to take the journey my Dad gave me to walk. Whatever the end may be.

Again, thank you for your input and having a conversation with me <3