Please help identify mark and age.

have we seen this one yet, not sold on ebay. Gold anchor, german mark, something in his mouth. He put it up for bids, but no takers:

https://picclick.com/Gold-Anchor-mark-GERMANY-Antique-Poodle-Dog-figurine-293567505215.html

 

Yes but that doesnt mean its Samson. Many people on ebay put as many search terms as possible in the title so it hits the widest possible audience. If you read the listing he's not saying anything at all about Samson. He claims its Chelsea from 18th cent. Samson is there purely to attract more eyeballs.

 

Well, not really. Your guess is off a few years too early in both directions. The "cheap export stuff" is widely correct though. Problem here is that we have a bunch of genuine ring/donut marks which were created for one specific purpose. Then we have (also old) examples where the producer 'customized' his own marks to look like the previous group (implying international trade). Finally we have the modern day reproduction crud, but those goods would normally prefer to copy "valuable" items.

Even if the historic context of their use is actually pretty straight forward, it would require a huge wall of text to clarify the precise background situations in which these were to be applied. Most readers here know that people often only want to understand what they like, meaning that a lot is simply ignored. Would you read a paragraph on export tax rates? Gotcha. And that would be fatal in this case; the whole context is a vital part of the assessment.

That aside, I am astonished to see how many of you eyed the "Edme Samson" lure. Think about it: at the time "Germany" in that form came into existence it was not Edme Samson but his son Emile, a short time later the Bloch family. And Emile had long thrown the towel before these circle/donut marks came into being. Go figure.

Just to add something more constructive: these items could indeed have been made in Germany and then been decorated elsewhere. France, Italy, just to keep things more or less local. Chances of finding out who produced them originally? Zero, as these ring/donut marks were not producer-specific.

Looks like I'm the party pooper again.

 

Thank you Chris!

 

That "poodle" made me smile...looks like a standard Poodle to me ... My Neighbor , who had a summer house next to us "Mrs. Franco" ( bright red hair, Spanish descent, ran the candy store at one of the huge San Francisco hotels ) , had a son , "Bill" , who was , um , how do we say this politically correct , a stereotype of one who then was then said to be Light in the loafers. He had two big huge standard poodles , which as a child I though were Foo Foo dogs till I played ball with them on their front lawn.... solid dogs they were, played fetch like they were Yellow labs ....

 

Not at all! We love to heave from the people who really know!

 

There was an article one in Garden & Gun (odd name, good magazine) by a man who'd trained Standards as hunting dogs. They turned out to be good at it.

 

short and sweet, you don't know it either.

 

If you had cared to read and understand what I posted you would have seen that I implied the requirement of a huge wall of text as to explain everything, and that people - due to not reading closely - would misunderstand anyway. As the "big picture" was not needed in this case it was easier to just mention a few points of interest.

Thanks for proving my point, though.

 

Sorry I messed up the reply. So, basically it's a reproduction of something really old made after 1915? And thank you for the knowledge.

 

I did read it, several times. And I cannot comprehend much of what you're saying there. I find it sad that you feel insulted or take umbrage with someone, when your writing style isnt a model of clarity.

THen you sort of insult anyone that reads it by saying: they would have misunderstood anyway; and also: that you cant write a whole wall of text because people only read what they want to read.

Q: what is a ring/donut mark? Sorry I dont know what youre referring to here. which ones are genuine?

Q: what is one specific purpose?

 

OK I am trying to understand exactly what you are referring to here. My guess is that you are referring to Edme Samson presumably imitating older CHelsea marks/figures. What does it mean to customize his own marks? I have no idea what that means.

What does international trade have to do with it?

 

THis is like putting words in peoples mouths. ITs presumptious to assume what people are going to do. If you dont have the time to write an explanation just tell us that.

What time period are we talking about now? I am not an expert in any of this. I would love to know what time period this is referring to and also what time period you think of the pieces in question come from.

THat would be really helpful.

What does this mean? Are some of these made by ES or none of them? Do you have an opinion on any of that?

I just dont get what it means to be lured here.

 

@sunday silence
I'm not sure I can answer all of your questions, but I'll try. I may not get it entirely correct so hope @say_it_slowly or @Chris Marshall will come back and correct me.

In 1891, the McKinley act was enacted in which items imported into the US had to have the country of origin. In 1921, it was amended and items more often than not say "Made In" with the country of origin.

This is the ring/donut mark. The one on the left is the mark shown on the pieces in this thread, the one where I drew the circle explains the donut reference.
Notice it does not say "Made In". So presumably made before 1921.


Chris is saying these can't be Sampson items. Edme died in 1891 just as the McKinley act is being implemented. Emile died in 1913.

Chris is referring to the ring/donut mark Not to Samson imitating Chelsea.
My own speculation is that they wouldn't have mass produced for the export trade.

I don't know if I helped or made things worse.
Sometimes Chris forgets we don't know what he knows. He is the author of a site that most of us use and reference ALL the time.
https://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/resources/history-notes.php
We don't get to tell him how much we appreciate the site. So Thank you Chris.

 

I find this entire line of reasoning hard to understand. The data base I posted pics from says Edme Samson existed until 1969. THe pics I posted from that site show anchor marks both red and gold and it says these are from 1885 to 1920s.

This is clearly within the time frame of the McKinley Act. I dont see why they couldnt have been in Germany in say 1910 or 1920 and had the anchor mark added after.

Am I missing something?

PS Thanks so much for the rest of the explanation. I knew some of that but I am just beginning so the "made in Germany" thing I did not grok until you explained it. Thanks again.

 

Grok? What the heck is grok?

Yes the company was still in existence until 1969, but not under the original family.
Chris mentions Bloch, but I can't find any reference to them owning Samson. So not sure who ended up with the company.

I went back and looked at your links. Not sure what you are referring to.
You show a screenshot of marks with no reference to what it is you are showing, or what site it is. It doesn't enlarge for these old eyes to view well.
The other links are ebay, worthpoint, and was there an Etsy? Anyway. Items up for sale/sold are not basis for origination, as that is what people "think" they have. Unless you know for sure what they are speaking about, you need to investigate all claims of origin.

Their factory was in France.
I doubt they would have put a German export mark on their items.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmé_Samson

 

Grok means to understand something. All the kids say it. I am trying to stay relevant.

 

But why is that relevant? You dont have to be the original owner of a porcelain company to paint an anchor on a figurine. I am at a loss as to this line of thinking. I am sure you and Chris are far more knowledgeable than me, and perhaps you are aware of industry traditions or understandings that I dont know anything about. But from pure logical perspective, we have a data base known as marks4antiques dot com. I pay a small monthly fee. They say that anchor or something very similar was done by Edme Samson. Its not straight from the lips of god but one would think they have a vested interest in being accurate.

But again getting back to the quote. Why do you and Chris keep bringing up this issue of ownership? Theres a company called Edme and someone drew an anchor on a german marked piece of porcelain (perhaps they purchased blanks from a German firm and then painted them? ) A data base then says that's Edme's mark. I am not understanding your pt here