NEED HELP PLEASE: VERY OLD SILVER CUP? Latin Markings? VERY INTERESTING!SEE PICS!!!!!!

You beat me to it, Brad! That's about what I thought. It's odd Spanish... very fancy and sorta medieval sounding.
"Jane of Flames for divine worship in 1704... This chalice is lifted for/to your voice"

 

I wonder if the order is wrong here since the writing is circular. Maybe it should be

This chalice is lifted for/to your voice Jane of Flames for divine worship in 1704

Does brasero translate to chalice?

 

Loving the help everyone

 

do you guys feel this could be from 1704?

 

I stand corrected, Brad. Actually, I was searching for the word crucible and couldn't remember it... but an online Spanish dictionary says BRAZIER.
I have now (in all my Mexican glory) been out-Spanished by an (I presume) Caucasian male. If you weren't so charming and helpful, I would POUT.

I may anyway.

Seriously, Brad, you know I luv ya.

 

I am guilty to all of the above. I am sure that I have forgotten more Spanish than I remember. I did go back and change the translation to worship from cultivate after checking so you got me there. Sometimes Spanish is so idiomatic that literal translations don't make much sense. This is usually where I fall short.

 

Or maybe... In 1704 this chalice is lifted for/to your voice Jane of Flames for divine worship?

I don't know Spanish, but the order sounds best to my ear this way.

 

I think you've got something there, Pat, and Brad, about the order.

 

My first thought when I saw it was that it was a Spanish or Spanish Colonial brazier (brasero, braserillo, or chofeta) - an ember bowl. Would guess that Juana de Llamas was most likely a person rather than a saint, and the brazier was perhaps lifted in her honor, perhaps after her passing. In looking at the engraving, believe some letters were missed in Chon's post, believe I see a 'D.' before the name, which bothered me because that would usually indicate a 'Don' rather than a 'Doña', but it does appear to be 'JUANA' rather than 'JUAN' - feel sure there are some other letters missing, but have neither the patience or eyesight to figure them out.

http://www.silvercollection.it/dictionarypipelighter.html

https://www.google.com/search?site=....7.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..1.6.778.6ygeXeMZgS0

~Cheryl

 

Glad you folks more or less got the translation before I had to struggle resurrecting my 2 years of high school Spanish. Phew...! I vote brazier rather than a chalice also. I also thought pewter, but test, try, a little silver polish on the bottom of the base and see if it removes any tarnish. Chon, if this cleans, polishes, there may be silver makings on it. If it is silverplated, the silver may have been worn off years ago.

As to whom Juana de Llamas refers to, I have seem Joan of Arc referred to as Joan of the Flanes many times.

BTW, Chon, welcome to the forum!

--- Susan

 

The Spanish Armada lost the battle of Blenheim in 1704...

 

You're all awesome! Thanks for the input!!! Very much appreciated! ;-)
Rubbed with baking soda a bit and it does brighten it up to a clean shiny silver!
Maybe this will help...there are minimal spacing in between the letters, and assuming the "V"s are "U"s, here's how it reads...again, not sure of the start, so I'll do my best...
JUANADELLAMASPARAELCULTODIVINOA(?)704ESTEBRASEROLOIZOPORSUDEVOZIOND.
the (?) is what looks like roman numeral for 2...like a double capital I, but not like the other I's in the script. Could also be a 1 before the 704 to make the year 1704?
Could JUANADELLAMAS be JUANA DEL AMAS? The second L in the DELL is superscript, or above the rest of the letters. same with the A before JUANA, which could mean (as Cheryl pointed out) Dona?
Did anyone notice what looks to be lotus flowers and asterisks/stars etched on the top of the bowl? any ideas on those markings?

 

Given the melting point of pewter, strikes me as a very unlikely material for a brazier - looks like heavily tarnished, and somewhat abused (nasty scratches on the interior) old silver to me, would be surprised if anything else, though unlikely to be of sterling fineness, also have little doubt that it predates silverplating. Engraved dates are not always an indicator of the age, as it can be done at any time after manufacture and can also commemorate an earlier event, but personally, would have no problem with 18th century dating on this piece...

~Cheryl

 

Cheryl, may have nailed it, "a person rather than a saint" person! Llamas was and is indeed a Spanish surname. Esther Williams married the actor Fernando Lamas. Suspect Lamas is the modern spelling of the same surname. The following website has info on the probable origins of the name. The following link is to an English translation of the Spanish webpage:
https://translate.google.com/transl...om/significado-de-llamas-000.html&prev=search

With that said I have found mention of a Juana de Llamas in the following Wiki... article of Marquess of Corvera. It seems a Rafael Antonio Bustos and Molina, the V Marguis of Corvera, married a Juana de Llamas sometime in the late 1700s. This is too late for the 1704 date, but is evidence that there was at least one ordinary person with the name of Juana de Llamas.

"Rafael Antonio Bustos and Molina, V Marquis de Corvera, Mr. de Cotillas, Torreblanca and Benandín.

1. He married Jeanne de Llamas and Molina. He was succeeded by his son"

Spanish page has the name as:
Juana de Llamas y Molina
English translation page has the name as:
Jeanne de Llamas and Molina.

Llamas was her maiden name and Molina married name. To see the name scroll down to the section "History of the Marquis de Corvera" and then down to the "V Marquis." Link to an English translation of the Wiki... Spanish page.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquesado_de_Corvera

Ancestry of this Juana de Llamas
http://geneall.net/en/name/1164368/juana-de-llamas-y-molina/
http://castilla.maxerco.es/getperson.php?personID=I47531&tree=Fernandodecastilla

--- Susan

 

The naive floral engraving and the somewhat crude cast bits are what made me think it might be Spanish Colonial, not terribly unusual for it to be unmarked.

Chon, will make two suggestions - cleaning silver with baking soda is not a good idea (might just leave it alone for the moment), and also suggest you contact the Spanish Colonial Arts Society in Santa Fe to see if they might be able to give an opinion or provide a referral to an expert...

http://spanishcolonial.org/contact-us/

~Cheryl

 

And I was romantically imagining a brave Spanish knight commemorating his survival of the terrible defeat of the Armada in the 1704 Battle of Blenheim. So the date isn't related at all to that battle?

 

Hehe - could be, but seems unlikely to me, doubt he'd want to celebrate a defeat even with his survival, and it would be mentioned if he did...

~Cheryl

 

Good point.
Reality over romance...... AGAIN......uhhhhhh-ginnnn!

 

I too cringed when OP said he cleaned it with baking soda !

 

so the Spanish historical society ?