Am I a camellia? Where did I come from?

Damask Roses! Had to look them up...

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...raznohNFfn10vw4Hc=&docid=kftRBiXsDuvq-M&itg=1

 

Ladies, I appreciate all the input... love heritage roses!

I'm still finding myself still uncertain. From the images I've seen online, I'm still not sure the flower at the bottom isn't a camellia? Some roses I've seen do look similar, but so do camellias.

Most often, it seems, rose petals turn up and are somewhat irregular in shape, while camellia petals often turn down and are more uniform, both of which look to me like characteristics of the flower in the print. Also, the leaves on both apparently are similar.

I know any artist's rendering is always subject to interpretation, but back when this book plate was made, illustrations like this were used primarily for education and sometimes as ads, much the way we use photographs today, so the depictions were usually as accurate as possible.

Is there something I'm overlooking?

Here are the closest examples I found...

ROSES








CAMELLIAS

 

If only we could SMELL 'em!

 

LOL! That would tell us in an instant for sure!

 

Paul de Longpre did a lot of the camellia shaped roses. And I while I reluctantly back down from Redoute, I stand my ground on those both being roses in your print. Ahem!

I forgot to ask - why are you so sure it's not Redoute?

Whoever the artist is -- Yummy!

 

I grow both roses and Williamsii camellias - those are the double ones. Look at the leaves on that original print. They're edged with almost saw tooth like protuberances, typical of some old roses. Camellias have smooth thick evergreen leaves, which are also considerably larger than rose leaves. And camellia blooms are carried differently.

 

Oh, and the veining is far too pronounced for hard evergreen camellia leaves. And don't forget the thorns, either.

 

Silver, agreed... very yummy!

Redoute's treatment was generally more delicate and detailed, with more of a balance between the item depicted and the background space. Also, my book plate is an original, and I feel certain it's somewhat later than Redoute's books, probably by 20- 40 or so years. My take, anyway.

 

Bear, thanks for sharing those details... it was just what I needed to be convinced it's a rose and not a camellia.

 

D'oh!
Just now noticed the thorns!
Yep, ROSES!

 

I love camellias. They look delicate but are tough as old rope. Mine grow in massive ceramic tubs and flower profusely. As long as they're in acid soil and sheltered from the early morning sun in winter, they survive seriously sub zero. Oh, and well watered in summer.

 

And just to show off a bit. Mild autumn, so here's what's still in bloom!

 

Beee-YOOOOOOOO-tiful!!!

 

Hi OBB,
Great photos, mine are all gone now. we had several frosts and they are cooked. I hate this time of year, when things are dying. Once they are dead it is easier to deal with.
greg

 

Bear, so beautiful! Your garden must be delightful.

 

Greg, I do love your images! "We had several frosts and they were cooked."

I think the subzero people want to meet with you!

 

How about cabbage roses? That's the first thing I thought of when I saw them.

Bear so so pretty!

 

In the pictures I've seen in Google cabbage rose petals look different, though they may not have been the same in the 19th century. I may try searching more for images of 19th century roses.

 

Owned, and any other rose people: when I was very small, we had a wonderful rose which inhabited a fence. It was not a 'cabbage rose' per the definitions given above. It had a tight, bright pink and pointed bud, very fat at the bottom. When the petals began to unfold, they were pointed and the edges rolled under.

As more petals began to open, they turned cream-colored, while remaining pink where attached to the bud. The flowers were large (about the size of today's Peace Rose), and they were perfumed. They didn't just have a fragrance, and they didn't just smell nice -- one could float to heaven on their scent.

Anyone have a clue?

 

Hm. Any thorns on it, silver? I'm wondering if it was Zehpirine Drouhin, although she doesn't really colour change. Was it repeat flowering or a one off? The other possibility is New Dawn, which is paler and does colour change.