The long lost Holy Grail?? Mystery Chalice?

Ok, my wonderful all knowing vast font of knowledge out there in cyber space. I was cleaning some closets and ran across this item which has been kicking about in there for quite some time. I remember buying it at a flea market umpteen years ago... maybe 10? It has always looked like this and till I knew what I had; I didn't feel comfortable doing anything with it. Poor thing is bent, crooked, dented, tarnished and has a story...what?

It stands 8" tall and the top is roughly 4" across. I feel like that is the top as the bell shape on the bottom is pretty gnarly inside and looks like perhaps at sometime someone used that end for a candleholder. I see no evidence of a "nut" inside the base; nor do I see a way they connected it at the top, leading me to think that it is welded? It is however; 3 separate pieces of metal. Bell shape bottom, turned stem and top cup. The bottom edge of the bell is a straight cut around; whereas the top has a rolled edge.

It has green tarnish in some places and underlying peeks of gold color under it.
The stem has some crude decorations; a leaf shape and half moon shapes to whole circle shapes depending on if they whacked it square on with the mallet, I'm guessing.

The thing is HEAVY - 15.7 ounces!! The stem is certainly solid metal. The whole item is solid and the top and bottom are firmly affixed.

Origin?
Age?
Material? Brass? Bronze?
True use? Drinking chalice?

I've researched this on and off for some time and have come up with nothing that resembles it. So, what are your thoughts?

Would love to know your thoughts. PS. the red and white bit in the center of the picture above was almost like a piece of flaked off enameling. I don't think it has anything to do with the item.

Cheerio
Leslie

 

No one has a clue huh?

Leslie

 

Hi Leslie, I lightened and cut the size a bit of just the first two full images....they were pretty dark.....fascinating 'chalice'....at least to me....buying at a flea market says we'll probably never know it's history unless someone maybe like @Any Jewelry can identify the design on the stem to an area??? Was the flea market in the USA... I'm thinking, unless it's just decorative, that looks like a foreign design and
I can't say which one!!!?? I'm not that good at it!!​

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Uhmmm.... no, sorry.
I wonder what it would look like the other way around, so the bell shape up?
I also wonder if the larger bowl is the same material. It looks more reddish in the photos, could it be copper, and the rest brass? A marriage maybe?

 

Things we know as of this moment

Made of copper or a copper alloy (we can see the green of copper corrosion on part of the stem)

With the design, this was not likely meant for day to day use, meaning it's either decorative or ceremonial.

Idea: Any chance it's a candle stick?

 

I was wondering the same thing.

 

Interesting thought, brought up by AJ's thought of turning it the other way UP....it DOES look like it's been set down HARD with that indenting into the larger 'cup' shape..........just wondering....AND it (larger shape...) IS looking more coppery, thinner and softer, whereas, the smaller shape DOES look like a thicker metal!!!????? OK, I'll shut up now ​

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@Aquitaine @Any Jewelry @Doot Boi @say_it_slowly ... thanks for your thoughts!

To try and answer questions: Yes, it was a US flea market... If memory serves correctly (as it was some time ago) - Florida.

From what I can tell; the cup shape and the bell shape may indeed be different thickness metal. (the bell being thicker by a little bit) I have a caliper and can measure the bell which ranges from 1.5 to 2 mm - right at the very edge of the rim. Unfortunately because of the rolled edge on the cup part; I can't get a reading on that end.

Yes, the top and bottom "may" be different materials from the stem...but the top and bottom do appear to be the same material.

I _ do _ think it has been used for a candle holder; but, the cup shape to hold a candle doesn't really seem right for it...

I don't get the feeling that it was a marriage. And YES, now that you mentioned it Aquitaine...it DOES look like it was brought down HARD!

So... yep, could be decorative or ceremonial. In really studying it "right side up" or "right side down"... although it really does seem top heavy to have the cup "up". And yet, I feel like because the "cup" side has a rolled edge, that it was meant for drinking purposes...and the "bell" shape is meant to be down as it is just a raw edge.

I guess we're still just guessing at this point. I think one of my big questions is just how OLD this item is... but no clues yet.

Thanks again for your suggestions...
Cheerio, Leslie

 

I have an old lead vase sort of thing I've never been able to decide which way is up either.

When I saw the two cup shapes on a stem I did wonder about it being a double jigger but I have my doubts about that idea.

 

Does the main 'stem' of this piece.....all the crescent shapes stamped into it give any indication or anyone the thought or feel that this could be Middle Eastern?? And I could be COUNTRIES OFF BASE!!!!, but it's just been niggling in the back of what's left of my brain.....

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@Aquitaine

I think it is way to crude to be a double jigger - although it could possibly be the right size.

As for those odd shapes... yes, I feel like it is possible that it has a middle eastern flavor. Most of those little crescent moons are just incomplete circle stampings... you can see in a few places where it would have been a whole circle. Unless of course, the full circles were the "error" and they were aiming to make crescent shapes. The leafy thing looks very palm leafy to me. IF the "cup" side is up then those leaf shapes dangle or point downward.

Just a lotta questions on this odd piece!

Leslie

 

I think they were pressed into the wax model with a circular punch. As Leslie said, some are circles, others are not even complete crescents.
It is a decorative effect, which could have been made in many parts of the world.

 

@Any Jewelry I agree ... I think you are right about being pressed into the wax model! Makes sense!

That said: the bell and cup must be applied some how... as they appear to be shaped flat metal rather than cast.

Leslie

 

Yes, the cup is made out of sheet metal. The bell looks cast to me. If you look on the inside of the bell, you can see some pitting, that is a sign it was cast and not smoothed afterwards, whereas the outside was.

 

@Northern Lights Lodge, was just reading my Antiques & Arts Weekly, and was taken by how very similar in shape this newer gold Kiddish cup is to yours, at least at the top and bottom!! I don't know.... maybe they're all shaped similarly???

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@Aquitaine Now there is a lead! I think that is on the right track! Granted mine will undoubtedly never have that value... but still! I do believe I need to research Kiddish cups!
Thanks!
Leslie

 

Most welcome.....it was a 'pure stumbled across it'!!!! Glad I did!!!! So, back it probably goes....the other way up!!!!

 

After doing some image searches... it actually more resembles a Christian chalice than it does a Jewish Kiddish cup.... but... the jury is still out!
Leslie