Sterling silver salt cellars and some silver salt spoons.

I know this is probably a shot in the dark but here goes anyways. I have two salt cellars marked 925 sterling. It appears they may have makers marks but all that is visible is the rectangles... any ideas? I am happy to do the looking if you have a direction to look in. THanks so much ... oh and I have salt spoons too... not marked sterling but as far as I can see this maker only did sterling?? N&D O which I believe is Nicholas and Daniel Onderdonk? they also have written on the backs F.W. Cooper. Appreciate your help!

 

I think your belief of Onderdonk partnership for the maker of the spoons is well founded. The "medallion" style was very popular circa 1870, which would be right in the middle of their working dates. A little surprising that they don't say sterling, but that could just be the timing. Assuming these are solid silver, I would suspect .900 (the so-called coin standard) without the sterling stamp.

FW Cooper would be the retailer, although I did not find that name in either of the retailer lists I know about. Not a big deal.

The cellars say only "sterling." The number above is probably the design or pattern name. Very odd to see the rectangular shapes without anything inside. I cannot see how whatever was there could have just "worn off" in the normal course of time without also removing the outlines. I suspect that the erasure was deliberate.

 

Thanks so much... hard to see from my pic but they do say 925 sterling on the cellars. Guess they will just be generic sterling silver salt cellars. =/

Would it be safe to say that the spoons could be silver without being marked as such?

 

"Coin" silver was only occasionally marked as such, usually just with the maker's mark. So I wouldn't worry about it.

I know the number above sterling "might" say 925, but I doubt it has anything to do with the fineness of the silver alloy. Normally, if the maker includes the 925 they do so with the "/1000" and sometimes also the word "Fine." Having the number above the sterling punch, isn't the way most US makers would have done it. Of course it could be, but I don't recall having seen one. Besides, it would be redundant, since .925 silver is the definition of sterling.

 

Thanks again!

 

Sorry, I'm a little late to this thread. I found FW Cooper (Francis W. Cooper) complicated to pin down as a silversmith, retailer, or both. As Baker said, FW Cooper (Francis W. Cooper) was no doubt the retailer of your spoons.

John McGrew's Manufacturers' Marks on American Coin Silver, pp 9, 10, 11, 58 and 67 credits FW Cooper (Francis W. Cooper) as a retailer ****and**** a silversmith, manufacturer. This book has coin silver marks pictured with their makers and retailers. The info on Cooper says he was located in at 102 Reade St., NYC working 1846-7 when the coin silver marks pictured were made. The coin silver marks in this source seem to date from 1820-late 1860s. It seems Cooper used the marks of FWC NY and F.W. Cooper as well a bust, C, lion. Here is one example of his info:
Company..................Location ..........Working ....Trade
[Francis W. Cooper .... ...Reade,NYC ......1846-47......S......

........Source.....Ref
....................vonK]

Note his trade is an "S" meaning silversmith. The book's reference, Ref, for FW Cooper markings:
"von Khrum, Paul. Silversmiths of New York City, 1684-1850. New York, NY: Privately published, 1978."

As a silversmith Cooper used the marks of a bust, C, lion that included retailer marks of Beggs & Smith and Palmer & Newcomb. See the attached pic. I know I went into this too much on Cooper, but coin silver marks and makers interest me.

Neither N & DO or Onderdonk are in this source. I did find their N & DO mark on the 925-1000 site saying sterling and plated silver.
2nd down on the right:
http://www.925-1000.com/americansilver_O.html

I'm not at all sure these spoons are coin silver. I could not find Onderdonk in any of my **coin** silver sources.

--- Susan

 

I always love to read and ponder your research and sources, Susan! And I didn't find Onderdonk in either of my "coin" sources, either, although neither one purports to be "complete."

I was able to find Nicholas (born about 1828 in Rockland County, NY) in the 1855 NY Census, listing his occupation as silversmith. Nothing to say that he was a sole proprietor or employee of another. Certainly at such a date, the silver he would have been working would not have been sterling grade, yes?

I was unable to find a confirmed record for Daniel in that census. In 1860, he appears to be living in CT with his wife's family, but his occupation field is blank, so I can't really tell when he took up the profession.

The two brothers and their business are listed in NYC directories in the late 1860's, 70's and 80's as silversmiths. In the 1880 Census Daniel says he "manufactures silver ware" which sounds much more like a "wholesale" business than being a "silversmith."

I think it is safe to surmise that their partnership may not have begun until after that date but before 1870. And the later it started the more likely that they didn't work in coin with that mark. I had been going by the 1850 date shown on sterlingflatwarefashions, which may or may not be correct.

The question gets back to Rose's spoons. Would there have been any likelihood that they were made of coin? If sterling, would they not have been so marked?

I'm not sure of the answer to either at this point.

 

Can't see any reason to believe the medallion spoons are anything other than circa 1860s coin silver, and believe Bakersma is correct in the Onderdonks being the manufacturer - Cooper's mark is also found as retailer on wares by better known makers.

The salts are interesting, my initial reaction was one of the Wm. Gale firms, also circa 1860s, but in checking around, find that their '925 STERLING' mark seems to only show up stamped on a single line. To my eye, the rectangular marks appear, for some reason, to have been punched to intentionally deface the maker's marks - have seen similar a few times, but the pieces were remarked (might be my imagination, but seem to see faint lettering in the larger rectangle).

Here's a somewhat similar footed Gale & Son salt with an 1860s date code: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vintag...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

~Cheryl