Russian Silver Mark Question

Don't know if my previous attempt to ask this question worked. (Very confusing site, at least for me.) Can anyone tell me as much as they know about the markings (posted on chuck tell images) on my Russian salt cellar? Thanks. I hope to be unconfused some day.

 

Welcome, chucktell! You should "embed" the pictures you put in your album in a reply to this thread. It will be easier for folks who can help than making them go back and forth between the Gallery and here.

To "embed Gallery media" click on the camera icon above the reply box.

 

Welcome to the forums!

Following are your pics. I took the liberty of cropping and/or resizing them in hopes the marks especially will show better. At the moment I haven't any help on IDing the marks. With the pics in the actual message, more people will see the pics. Many people do not have time to look around the gallery.

--- Susan

 

The circle is the finesse mark. The finesse is 84 zolotniks that is .875 silver. The circle has a profile of a woman's head facing left wearing a diadem. Under the head are initials of the assayer. I'm not sure what the letters on yours. This is what Tardy's International Hallmarks on Silver, p. 373 says:

"In 1896 a national mark was introduced. It consisted of the left profile of a wonan's head wearing a diadem. Each district was supervised by an assayer who put his mark bext to the woman's head.

From 1908 to 1917 the wonan's head looked right and was followed by the district number..."

With the woman facing left means your item was assayed between 1896 and 1908. Don't know the rest of the markings yet.

--- Susan

 

Here are Russian silver purity marks called Kokoshnik. Note that the 1st/top one may have the same assayer's marks as yours under the head on the neck, Moscow, Ivan Lebedkins

http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_kokoshnik_01.ht

Left of the circle is probably the maker's mark. Following is a link to some Russian cyrillic makers' mark. You might look down the page for something that resembles what is on the item. I'm not sure if it is an "I" followed by a "U or W" type of letters or what??

http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_makers_A_r.html

--- Susan

 

Bakersgma, thanks for the information on image embedding. It looks like Susan has just done it for me, complete with cropping and resizing (Thanks, Susan), but I've made a note of how to do it myself in the future.
Susan's additional information does, in fact, seem to indicate Ivan Lebedkin, Moscow, as assayer on my piece. The small kokoshnik and accompanying small-84 marks on mine do seem to be the version used only in a short 6-month marking transition period at the end of 1898 (referred to in Susan's link: http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_kokoshnik_01.html.)
I should have emphasized just how small the entire kokoshnik marking actually is. You can't tell by looking at my blown-up photo. You need a lot of magnification to see the assayer mark. Even the "84" is hard to see with the naked eye. And you can see how the "84" is also small relative to the head (which itself is very small). I would say it's definitely the small format of late 1898 referred to.
Also, here's an older discussion on another forum that talks about the small-format kokoshnik marking: http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38756.
I haven't been able to identify a cyrillic maker's mark for my piece anywhere. I tried "WI" and "MI," (upside-down) to no avail.
Please post any other ideas or thoughts on all of this that occur to anyone. And thanks again for the fast, helpful responses.

 

I think I may have found the maker's mark for my Russian salt cellar. I found a pair of champagne flutes with the same IW maker's mark. The flutes also have the same assayer mark as mine (Lebedkin). And they have the left-facing kokoshnik: https://www.bukowskis.com/en/lots/4...-ilya-fomich-moskva-ca-1900-tot-vikt-ca-162-g
The only difference from mine is that the kokoshnik mark and 84 aren't the small version as previously described in my post above. But this makes sense because in 1899 they went to a larger marking format.
I also found this information: (maker's mark Cyrillic 'I.Shch' (possibly Ilya Schetinin), 1899-1908) in this link: (http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...kards-with-hinged-covers-5704829-details.aspx)
Even though the small-format kokoshnik was, by one description, only used the last half of 1898, I would think that the maker is actually probably Ilya Schetinin, even though it says his year range started in 1899, when the larger format began.
Thanks again for the help. Let me know if my thinking is off.

 

Chuck, I do believe you have definitely IDed the maker and probably the assayer! Good finds!

Just a little additional thought. I'm not 100% sure this is a salt. If it is a salt cellar, it may be missing a glass insert/liner. Most silver salts came with glass inserts or gold wash interiors. Salt and silver do not mix. Salt will eat into silver. Is there any corroding in the bottom of the bowl?

--- Susan

 

Inside bottom Russian silver by chucktell posted May 19, 2016 at 12:36 PM

Inside bottom Russian silver by chucktell posted May 19, 2016 at 12:36 PM

Susan,
Thanks again.
The reason I call it a salt cellar is that that's what I've seen similar items called. Here's an example: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/44792994_russian-salt-cellar-on-feet-faberge-workshop. This example is a little smaller than mine, but otherwise identical. I notice it's either corroded or tarnished on the inside bottom. Do you think it had a glass liner at one time? Do you think mine did? What else do you think mine might have been used for? Or be? I'm going to attempt to imbed an image of the inside bottom of mine. I don't see much, if any, corrosion. The goldish tint on the inside side is just lighting effect. There's no gold tone at all. Again, my piece is 1.5 inches tall, 2 inches wide at the top, and 2.5 inches wide at the bottom. One more question. How do you tell if something is "Faberge workshop?" (As in the example link.)
PS, I wasn't able to imbed the inside-bottom image in this reply (after much effort), but it's in chucktell media if you choose to look.
Chuck

 

Oh dear, please don't pin me down. I was hoping someone else would come up with an opinion on it's purpose. I can't tell from the pics whether they are corroded with pitting or not. As to the Faberge piece, it seems hard for me to believe that a company like Faberge with its high end reputation back in Imperial Russia days made silver salt cellars without glass liners or some sort of protection. CALLING Sue, Cheryl, af, and one all do chime in on this!!!

The maker's mark on that bowl are those 2 Cryillic letters, KΦ. It is one of the marks Fabergee used. "K" in Cyrillic is K. I think??? it is for Karl and the "Φ" is F for Faberge. Karl Faberge, Peter Karl Faberge, headed the company after his father Gustav, the founder, died??? Carl was spelled with a K. Here are some of their marks:
Note that the KΦ mark is pictured under "Faberge Marks"
http://www.silvercollection.it/faberge.html

You did it, the pic is embedded! Next time only click "Full Image" one time. If you click your mouse on a spot in your message, the cursor, where you want a pic embedded, then click "Full Image" the pic will be embedded in that spot.

--- Susan

 

It's a salt, fairly common form, especially in Russian silver, it's unlikely there was a glass liner, and the interior may or may not have been gilt - salt only damages silver if left to gather moisture. While gilding or a liner would certainly be desired, many silver salts were sold with plain interiors, sometimes offered with optional gilding, and often those with gilt interiors right next to others without on a catalog page. Etiquette and household guides, as well as ladies' magazines advised removing the salt from the cellars after use, though I'm sure it was also just common knowledge...

Faberge should bear the proper marks, there were somewhere around 40 workshops that provided precious metal goods for Faberge - and the marks are so commonly faked that the term 'Fauxberge' has been coined. Russian silver is a complicated field, filled with intricacies, and complicated by the morass of fakes and forgeries - even among those who are well-schooled, differing opinions are common. Faberge did produce similar salts, one can be seen in the 1893 Faberge catalog on the link below, first pic on the Sept. 12, 2011 post, second row, third from right - it's #53 on the last page shown on the Sep. 09, 2011 post, described as 'Salt cellar, silver, matte'.

http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=25506

~Cheryl

 

Bakersgma, Susan, Cheryl.
Thanks again for all your help.
It was fun.
Chuck