Russian Silver Flatware Pattern ID Sought

Recently obtained a small lot of silver flatware, knives and forks. The knife blades are stamped with a Swedish maker's marks. The forks have a typical poinçon of old European, Russian ware on the front of the utensil part. Here it's a Russian punched stamp, with 84, for Moscow w.

I have arrived at the ware was manufactured in Russia, probably before 1908 to judge by the small head on the left of 84 (lower image of the two), most ressembling the punch mark on my ware.

My question: Name of maker, name if any of the pattern?

I have not found the exact design anywhere online yet. Perused gazillions of images on three search engines, maybe I missed it. It's obviously a Louis XV style pattern, probably a rather "late" such, as the swirling lines extending upward are Nouveau-inspired. S-words incl. Louis XV, rococo, rocaille, laurier, Russian antique silverware flatware, have all failed to turn up the EXACT style, although plenty of look-alikes.

It's probably silver plate since no stamp for solid silver [800, 830, or 925 etc.) is in evidence anywhere. The knives have the same poinçon on the rim below the blade.

 

Hello, Liz. I think it would easier to help if you attached pictures of the actual marks on both your forks and knives, rather than saying that they "look like" the pictures you attached without attribution.

One thing I can say is that "84" under the old Russian system is a fineness indicator (84 zolotniki in Russia) also used in a number of places and does not exclusively indicate or stand for "Moscow." There were separate city marks for each place in which assaying was done and none of them were numeric.

 

@Bakersgma Thank you for checking in with my problem. Yes, had I gotten my cheap digital camera to close in sufficiently on the teensy poinçon punched mark I definitely would have included it. As it is, I had to find the exact mark on the web and "borrow" an image of it there.

It is the mark in the upper picture, not the lower as I first thought. The face reaches all the way up in the mark. The older mark appears to have a smaller face with a little headroom above it.

I used a strong loupe to look at the mark now. The information that it meant Moskow is the one included with the picture I posted, or I wouldn't have known. Avoiding advertising here: The info comes from an online library of stamps and marks on a site with a dot com that ends in .it Not a commercial site, only reference.

So if this 84 stamp is a fineness indicator, it refers to the thickness of silver plated on top of the metal that is under it, right?

These utensils are unusually light in weight, not as heavy as stainless steel would be. They are also a lot lighter than the common Soviet era ware with the MHU mark, i e melchior.

I wonder what alloy they used here. The plating is quite heavy actually. The set I have has seen almost no use so without any wear marks or missing plate I can't even guess what's under it.

Maybe some expert on Russian silver can weigh in on it?

 

Please show your marks, you might try taking a picture through a magnifier if you have no macro function on your camera. The images taken from Giorgio's site, as Bakersgma already suggested, were found on solid 84 zolotnik (.875) silver...

~Cheryl

 

No, it has nothing to do with plating or the thickness thereof. It is a fineness mark on solid silver assayed at 84 zolotniki in the Russian system. They did not use the decimals we are familiar with today. NOTE: This post was started before Cheryl's post hit the page. )

We have no prohibition here against referring to sites that are reference only and not for sales. In fact, it a member has found an example of something that might be useful for an identification or valuation question. there is nothing keeping them from posting a link to that example, regardless of it being on a site offering items for sale either. You must have us confused with eBay (God forbid.)

 

I shall try with a magnifier. Tried it already but got only fuzz. Have other magnifiers, will try them.

So 84 is thus solid silver? Whatdyaknow... I could have hit it lucky.

 

It is, but not as fine as sterling.

 

@Bakersgma Thank you! Not as fine as sterling but it aint plate...

 

Liz, you can also take a photo of the part of the fork where the marks are, and crop it to show only the marks. That is the way I usually do it.
Btw, sterling is .925 silver, 84 zolotniki is .875 silver.

Exactly. And at one time Russia included countries which are now independent. Not just former Soviet states, but also Finland.
So, marks please.

 

@Any Jewelry I have tried taking a photo (actually 16) of the fork where the poincon mark is with very little success, see miserable example, the best of them here. The part I cannot discern is the tiny Greek letter on the left of the kokoshnik that identifies the region where the assay was made.

I have now enlisted my DH to do much better. Once an engineer in electronics and with watch restoration as a hobby he's more qualified than I. Should have asked him first but then, well, I always hesitate before commissioning the propeller of QEII to whip the proverbial bowl of cream.

The image of the three kokoshnikmarks are from 925-1000.com for comparison.

Thanks again, guys!

 

Agree, it is very difficult to see, but there is a possibility that it is the delta for Moscow. Will wait for your DH's superior photographic skills.
As the others said, for a good ID we need to see the actual mark, rather than one from a site.

 

Eh, from what my defective eyes can make out, looks like it might be Riga.

So guessing the original images are not yours - but if they are, then should be able to get clear pics of the marks too, as AJ suggests, cropping a full shot of the area would a good way to go (where is the maker's mark?) All that said, finding a pattern name or number is a real long shot, but may find the assay office and maker, as well as narrowing date if working years are available...

~Cheryl

 

So the delta is a sigma... We definitely need better pics.

I was wondering about that too.

 

Truly have no idea, I just seemed to see a bit of a 'squiggle', but the image is so unclear...

~Cheryl

 

@DragonflyWink [~Cheryl] and @Any Jewelry You're both right that my image is extremely unclear. (I tried to warn )

Unfortunately so is the punched stamp on ALL the ware. On the knife handle rims it's even smaller, impossible to see any more than 84 through a loupe.

Other marks you ask? Don't I wish... Since there aren't any, it is what it is: A poorly struck mark that's very hard to photograph, even to make out visually under a very strong loupe.

Am still waiting for DH to go into action, stay tuned!