Featured Russian and English marks?

Hi,
I am working on this pretty bon bon dish (25 cm/10'' long). It originates in England, but it doesn't necessarily have to have been made there.
I have identified the letters БЮ - for Baku? The workers head with hammer and the 916 purity mark, another "p" which I am still not sure about and the very clear marks "H" and "M", which are very confusing as they are very British in style. I am not very familiar with Russian silver and would appreciate any help.

 

The shape and style of the pretty dish look so Victorian English/European/American to me that my best guess is that it has been remarked somewhere, sometime, in the USSR. Note also that the letters H and M look older, rubbed.

The Soviet mark was used sometime between 1927 and 1958 according to Tardy. The punch is marked with the letter Z for the city but I don’t know what that is.

I’m guessing the letters БЮ or BЮ, I can’t tell which one it is — could be the local jeweller’s/remarker’s as Ю is the first letter of ювелирная meaning jewellers. I read the mark after that as the number 2. That would make some sense as the artels, workshops, around the turn of the century were numbered.

But this is just a guess.

 

916 points to Russia ...
https://www.silvercollection.it/DICTIONARYSILVERFINENESSMARKS.html

https://www.silvercollection.it/WORLDRUSSIA916.jpg

 

Just trying to help those of us with old eyes...

 

Thank you. My eyes aren't just old, they are also Covid eyes, with blind spots and lens damage.

The part of the USSR west of the Ural mountains and north of the Caucasus was Europe. It still is, of course, but the USSR is no longer. (Although you wouldn't think it, with recent events.)

 

Yes, the mark is one used in the USSR, i.e. the Soviet Union, but it doesn’t mean that the dish was made there.

Edit. I really can’t see the style of the dish having been in vogue in the Soviet Union between 1927 and 1958. Instead, it very much was in England in late 19th C. That’s why I think it is more likely that it was made in England and remarked for whatever reason in the USSR.

Silver made in the Soviet Union hasn’t ever fetched the kinds of prices that Russian silver did — that’s why I doubt anyone used Soviet punches to fake the item. It might actually be more valuable as an English original.

 

Yep — I was just using shorthand instead adding France, Germany, Hanau etc as possible origins, although the shape of the letters points to England.

Can’t find any source that would identify what city Z was. I read the mark on the Kokoshnik mark as a Z but my eyes are getting blurry as we speak.

 

Looks like the mark of Birmingham maker Henry Matthews, late 19th century or early 20th.

 

I agree.

Edit. Re the discrepancy between the 916 punch and English sterling ( 925) maker’s mark — Soviet punches weren't made in foreign silver standards. So the person remarking it likely checked it was at least 916/1000 and used the regular punch. Or most likely simply trusted the English marks.

 

Thank you all. I wonder if these soviet marks could have doubled as import marks; but I also learned that all remaining imperial and other silver was remarked after 1927, so maybe that's it. Also, it's nearly impossible for a British silver piece to be marked only by the maker, and I haven't found any other British marks so far, but I'll return for another look.
Regarding the z - I found it's indeed the district mark for Baku.
As the dish belongs to a collection with known provenance, I know it was gifted by English nobility to someone outside England in the late 1950s. I know it could have been exported to Russia and taken back to the UK with fleeing Russian nobility, but it's still a lot of travel for a dish. And usually anyone who has fled with valuable property did so before 1927.

 

That’s really interesting — and great research. Since the Soviet mark was used till 1958 according to the only source (Tardy) that I have, it seems plausible that the dish might have been in Russia around the time of the revolution and taken back to England, only to be gifted maybe to someone in Azerbaijan in the fifties.

The USSR then implodes in the early 1990’s and a lot of very rich people from the former Soviet Union oil countries move to the West in the next decades.

The English marks could’ve been removed or struck over by the Baku marks.

 

Went back to look for other English marks. Nothing. However, the Russian marks are deep and seen from the other side while the English maker's ones are shallower (if that's the word) and can't be felt from the back. This supports the assumption the other English marks were struck over.

 

I assume it does since removing marks would make the silver thinner in that spot.
On the bright side, the dish is likely several decades older than it were if it was made in Baku. And like I said, Soviet era silver isn’t really especially valuable anyway— unless, perhaps, it was owned by someone really famous. The fact that it once belonged to English nobility plus its interesting travel history might also be appreciated by some history buffs.