Featured I'm probably asking the impossible from you .... and expect you to come through with flying colours

I am building up quite a nice collection of works by Emile Madesclaire Jeune (active 1929 to 1940) and when I saw this plate or charger, I wanted it. Although I don’t particularly like still life paintings.

Apart from this plate, the only other full plate decoration by Madesclaire that I have seen is that posted by "Kingjoker" 17 February 2017. And I search the internet extensively.

The seller didn't say much about it except mentioning Madesclaire and hand painted. Nothing about size, so that was a surprise. The decorator/artist is "Nordap" or "Noidap".

It arrived yesterday and I discovered it was 43 cm x 29 cm x 4 cm, enormous.



Can some of you help me with:-

1. Information about the decorator/artist Nordap;
2 Madesclaire was Limoges based; but there is no secondary Limoges mark on the plate. Can one assume it is porcelain;
3 Am I right in assuming this would have been a cabinet plate rather than a functional one, although there is wear on the gilded rim;
4 Can you determine if it is hand painted. The last photograph is of a manufacturing blemish in the porcelain and paintwork, about 3mm diameter;
5 Assuming it is hand painted would it have been copied inhouse by other decorators using the Nordap name, or would that have been illegal;
6 Is it likely that it would have been commissioned as a one-off plate;
7 A ballpark price it might sell for, although it is not my intention to sell?



















Many thanks.

 

You are hoping this Nordap was not a hobbyist, but the painting looks kind of one dimensional to me.

 

I have just taken a shot of it at around 45 degrees. What do you think?

A short while ago a member commented that they didn't think Limoges porcelaine buyers were not influenced by the fame of the decorator. buyer.

 

I read the decorator's name as "Norda P."

Debora

 

IThanks. I've tried variations of that and Google brought up nothing.

 

I'd think the chances of finding an obscure 19th century china decorator with an internet search would be highly unlikely.

Debora

 

Madesclaire was second-quarter 20th Century; but your point still stands. I imagine most decorators would be the gig workers of today.

Do you think it is hand painted or transfer? I've looked at it through my printer's glass and can see no dots. So in a day how many pieces can a piece worker work?

 

I agree that it's most likely a Madesclaire platter decorated by an amateur china painter. The painting style looks MCM to me. A lot of MIJ pieces from the '50s and '60s with similar decoration.

 

I don't think the platter is MCM. But it may well be the work of a hobbyist. She created some nice rhythm through the use of repeated geometric shapes but I don't think the lack of depth is intentional. And the first lesson of Drawing 101 is don't start to create an object by outlining it with a dark rule. (That's a technique used for cartoons.) A fully-trained artist would rely fully on light and shadow instead.

Debora

 

@Debora

Given his background I don't see Madesclaire selling white plates, and therefore
can't see how a hobbyist would get hold of a plate to decorate. It would be an anathema to him for anybody other than his workshop to use his Trade Mark.

There isn’t a great deal of information on the Internet about Emile Madesclaire, who trained and worked as a porcelain designer and decorator, following in the footsteps of his father, Leon.

Initially Emile worked for Vignaud Limoges, and possibly others; but in 1920 opened his own factory and decorating workshop at the corner of two streets, 54 rue Montesquieu and 49 to 61 rue Jean-de-La-Fontaine.

In 1934 the factory changed hands with establishment Boyes et Cie taking over, perhaps Madesclaire had final problems. Boyer transferred the Madesclaire decorating workshop to its other factory at rue Cruveilher, where presumably it stayed until Madseclaire ceased to exist in 1940.

 

I understand what you are saying, and agree, apart from my comments above on Madesclare.

 

This Madesclaire turreen platter appears to be the same blank.

https://www.catawiki.com/fr/l/27165199-madesclaire-service-de-table-42-porcelaine#gallery

Debora

 

I'm sure it is the same; but then they have gone on and and completed the decorating.

I have asked the woman who sold on behalf of her aunt, to ask her if there were any hobbyist painters in the side of her family who passes it on to here. A bit of a convoluted sentence that i am sure you will sort out. I'll let you know if she has the answer to the riddle.

 

I've enjoyed having a little search as I'm not vaguely well versed in French porcelain. Thank you for a little background on this company! This doesn't answer anything you asked, sorry.

I didn't find anything really but did come up with a few signatures on styles of painting that made me go huh.... They are not your signature but it does make me wonder. The style of fruit is similar.

Anyway, here are the pieces (Limoges but not EM though) just for the style and the sigs that made me wonder if someone or "someones" used a name they didn't quite understand or that changed over time.

My SIL's mother was a hobby china painter from the last quarter of the 20th C or so and I was gifted various pieces she painted. It's always made me a bit curious about hobby painting. These are nothing like anything she did.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-coronet-limoges-tray-platter-2020351592



https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/17652047_2-limoges-gilded-plates

 

@Debora The seller came back to me; but couldn't add anything. In fact she said that they had been a rather poor family and she couldn't recall anybody who professed painting skills or the aspiration to paint. Dead end. Thank for your help.

 

Thanks for looking, and I'm pleased you enjoyed effort. To be honest, half the thinks I buy are for the enjoyment of the search that follows.

 

Thank you for providing the information from the seller's family.

Debora

 

The folks decorating Limoges china varied a great deal in their skill. Some were able to dash off quick pieces (see the artists of Flambeau) and others could be quite skilled (see the artists of Jean Pouyat). The skilled artists may be collected in their own right but a piece is usually valued more for being a Jean Pouyat than by the individual artist who decorated it.

Back to Flambeau. Many of their pieces are signed simply "Rene" or "Levy" which are impossible to track back to the individual artists. I've often thought that there were perhaps more than one "Rene" or "Levy" who produced pieces for Flambeau based on the same design as dictated by the company. Due to the volume of Flambeau on the market multiple artists by the same name seem possible. Unfortunately, the records haven't yet come to light to prove one way or the other. Arguably, many of their pieces could be mistaken for hobbyist pieces but are not. There may be folks out there collecting only Flambeau signed Rene or only Flambeau signed Levy. If nothing else it would keep collections from growing overwhelming, but to date I haven't come across these collectors.

Anyway, things continued happily until labor shortages and increased wages caused entirely hand painted pieces to become unprofitable for the companies. At this point hybrid decorating techniques took over. It was still thought that pieces signed by individual artists was more valuable so that practiced was continued. not only by French companies but by German companies as well. In this era (post WWI) you'll see pieces using stencils and air brushing. Paint strokes were added over the top of the decorations to make them look hand decorated and then signed.

This is the long way around to saying I think your piece may be one of those hybrid decorated pieces signed by an anonymous artist. The style seems consistent with depression era porcelain. The background looks to me like it may have been at least partly airbrushed and the blank spots in your decoration would indicated where a stencil failed to adhere properly. The blemish you see is a defect in the porcelain which I would expect to see better covered in paint if it was indeed completely hand painted.

Your platter might have been a short lived experiment that Madesclaire considered when looking for new markets. Or it might have been a rare example of Madesclaire that escaped into the whiteware market and was picked up by an unnamed decorating company. I don't believe the platter is hobbyist decorated. There seem to be too many techniques used that a hobbyist might not have all the equipment for. Unfortunately, until more records come to light I'm not sure your questions can be answered with any certainty.

I hope my response helps and I'm sorry if it seems a bit disjointed. My thoughts get a bit jumbled sometimes and the remnants of a head cold aren't helping. I certainly don't claim any definitive answers here. They are just the thoughts of a long time collector.

 

@dgbjwc Thank you, that was extremely interesting and has put at least half a smile back on face.

A fascinating piece that has taught me a lot, I really wish retain all that I read. I hope you are soon fully recovered.

 

@Kingjoker