Help with unknown French cannon type

The company passed on this during the auction, as did all but one Civil War relic dealer. Catalog said "modified trunnions" which I think everyone took to mean the original trunnions had broken off and had ugly modern replacements. So I hadn't even looked at it closely before the auction. I think the one successful bid was like $350. If piece had been in orig cond would have sold in 4-figs somewhere.

After the auction I had some time and looked at it more closely, and came to believe the cannon was a kind I'd never seen before. Instead of trunnions sticking out of each side to hold it in the carriage, it has rounded notches cast in and the carriage would have a matching protrusion on either side. So I missed out on something that I found, too late, was very interesting and another research challenge. The buyer hadn't sold it 5 mos later and offered it to the company for only about 6 times what he paid so they bought it and picked it up a couple of hours away last weekend.

I've only learned that it came to the US as ballast in a British warship ca 1812, and the wreck was salvaged in the 1950's. I haven't found any reference at all to French 18th C. Trunnionless cannons. This tube is 110" long, has about a 4.5 inch bore. I'm guessing it weighs maybe 3500 lbs. it is made of cast iron and we haven't seen any markings yet. We're pretty sure it is French from the shape and the fact that the same British ship had other, but positively-id'd French cannons onboard.

In 2nd photo, ignore the smooth shaft, that's a fake trunnions put on by Ft. Ticonderoga Assn. so they could display it on a more traditional type carriage. The tan thing is a leaf.

What I'd like to find is any mention of this type of cannon, a photo of another one, etc. Haven't found anything on the web but a book that mentions finding two water-salvaged trunnionless cannons stored at Ft. Ticonderoga ca. 1980's (this is certainly one of them.). There were two of them in the auction but the other, a twin to this one, was in rougher condition.

 

Just to be a good sport, and to test 'beginners' luck', I Googled and surfed, and found nothing. For real, I can't easily imagine anybody here knowing something you don't, about cannons...

 

I can see how someone who hasn't been here for a long time would think that, but some of my specialized questions have been answered by non-specialists here. Most recent example was a few mos. back regarding a suspected lifesaving mortar. A couple of folks here found excellent info that I needed, Brad was one of them. It seems if you have lots of practice with web searching and a good command of language, you can find info on just about anything. Now why hadn't I already found what they found, no idea except Google is very large and another person may have hit on the winning search phrase and the way I searched for the same thing just didn't get there, go figure!

 

I posted same question and photos on two specialized sites yesterday and neither has produced any new info., will let ya know if either comes thru.

Some info I think is pertinent to the subject as background comes from Crisman, Kevin J., COFFINS OF THE BRAVE, Texas A&M University Press, College Station, 2014, pp. 295, regarding the 1949 salvage of the British brig LINNET:

"Among the recovered artifacts were four cast iron artillery pieces: two 8-foot-long (2.4m) 9-pounder cannon without trunnions,,,All were broken or worn out and were serving as ballast aboard LINNET. The two 9-pounders and the split mortar were sold to Ft. Ticonderoga..."

The piece I've pictured above was de-accessed by Ft. Ti in 2015. Although there's a bit of a discrepancy between the length reported for the two 9-pounders salvaged from LINNET and the one pictured as I measured it, I'm sure the one here now is one of those two.

 

This cannon is now being plundered. That means the contents, if any, are being removed. This one contains many cannon balls in addition to rust, dirt, etc. Three balls, including one 6-pounder and two 8-pounders, are out so far. The cannon, which we know was used as ballast on the British Brig LINNET, was probably filled with cannon balls to add weight and thus make more space-efficient ballast. A small amount of molten zinc had been poured in the muzzle after the last ball was inserted to help keep the balls in the cannon during handling. Our plunderers had no way to pull on the first ball which was a couple of feet back from the muzzle, so they knocked it a bit toward the breech to free it, then tools were made to clean the front of the bore enough to let the balls pass. Various things were tried to pull them out, including a magnetron magnet and a shop vacuum cleaner. The vacuum seemed to work the best. They had tried putting compressed air in the vent but that didn't do anything.

 

Well made some more progress and have now ID'd this as a Long 8-Pounder naval gun made in 1808. It must have had trunnions at first, and here's a better view of the underside and where trunnions were. The configuration shown had a purpose, I just don't know what yet. My latest WAG is that since the French often used long 8-pounders as bow and stern chasers, they invented a way to mount two tubes on one carriage to save precious deck space in the ends of small warships. French loved multiple-barrel cannons, I'm sure you've seen their fascinating but heavy 3-barreled field guns from the same period.


Underneath view while still at Ft. Ticonderoga:


Helping balls to roll out once manipulated free:


Plunder




Date reads 1808


Drawing of French naval iron long 8-pounder M1786, note that pattern has been changed slightly by 1808 to add a vent mass at the top of the breech (so it isn't shown on this ca. 1786 drawing.) This vent mass is basically a small, raised square platform to mount a flintlock firing mechanism:

 

Just surfing around...
1808 carronade... the date caught my eye.
This article says the French stole the "smaller cannons" idea from the British in the late 1700s. Astounding to imagine men battling each other at close range with these things... at SEA!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade

 

That cannon ...has a lot of balls !

 

Thanks, I recognize the drawings as from the US Navy's material in the National Archives, it is one of the Navy's oldest drawings on file if I recall correctly. Real carronades are pretty scarce these days, I've only owned one British 24-pounder carronade that was found with several other iron cannons in a lot in Sandwich, MA. It sold in last years' auction.

 

Spring, I haven't any help on your cannon, but I certainly enjoy reading your informative postings! First of all I didn't even know what a trunnion was, nevermind a trunnionless cannon. After doing a little research on what trunnions on cannons are, I googled a bit coming up with your pics and postings here and somewhere else. The only trunnionless anything I found that interested me was that the cannon or cannons at the Alamo were presumably trunnionless.
http://www.johnwayne-thealamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=845

This raised the question for me, where did the Alamo get their cannon(s)? Were they Mexican or transported wayyyy down there from the USA?

1. If they were Mexican, were they originally from Spain? If from Spain, were they cast in Spain or could they have originated in France under Napoleon?

2. Were they left over from the early attempts of the French to colonize Texas (17th century - early 19th century?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonization_of_Texas

I know this really has very little relationship to your query, but my curiosity got the better of me.

--- Susan

 

You might share this info with the folks in CAMP, Council on America's Military Past. They may have answers to some of your questions, and would certainly be interested in your find. http://www.campjamp.org

 

Thanks, may do that, I was a member long ago, when the last word in CAMP stood for "Posts." I think it is the same group anyway.

Regarding the cannon, this has been fun even though I still don't know why it was modified. What I know about the cannon otherwise isn't a lot, but better than the nothing you usually get when buying an item with no provenance.

It was cast in France in 1808 and somehow got into British hands very soon after, most likely by the British capturing whatever French ship was armed with this cannon. It was at Île aux Noix, Canada in 1814 when the LINNET was built, and it was filled with cannonballs and put in the bilges of the ship as ballast. In the same year that ship with this cannon aboard was captured by the US at the Battle of Lake Champlain. It was anchored for many years until it sank from rot near Fort Ticonderoga. It wasn't salvaged until 1949, and the cannon was sold to Ft. Ticonderoga in the 1950's. Maybe when we get the rest of that thick old paint off, we'll know a little more but I've probably got about all I'm going to get on this one.

My best guess on the purpose of the modification underneath has to do with the island shipyard where LINNET was built being a very busy place in 1814. It was building English ships to fight the Americans, and was somewhat remote. I'm sure there was a lot of improvising. Maybe a heavy weight was needed to counterbalance a cargo boom or something, and the recesses were cut in to provide a rope-fastening point.

 

Same group...Used to be Council on Abandoned Military Posts. Maybe you knew my dad, Charlie Kimbell? He helped start the Coastal Defense Study Group.

 

I didn't know your dad, but that doesn't mean we never met, am bad at names.

Susan, I don't know about the Alamo guns. Some of the info in that thread is good and some is bs. Carronades are only used at much shorter ranges than the 1000 yd mentioned.