Help with Germany Silver Appreciated

First, fiddle thread spoon with R13, eagle (double headed?) and BMF? I researched the best I could and found maybe the eagle city mark is one of these three ,Aachen North Rhine, Heilbronn Baden Wurttemburg, Lubeck Holstein, but couldn't attribute a maker or pin down age. R13 not shown. TIA

 

French fashion spoons above measure 8 1/2 long

Second ID need on same style spoon measures 10" long with no clue on maker mark

 

That second one is from Gebruder Hepp, silverplated at best, and as you can see from this link, German.

http://www.925-1000.com/silverplate_H2.html

 

I'm skeptical about the first one being older than the 1886 German rules. Can you show the R13 mark you mentioned?

 

Brief but illustrated thread re: a BMF mark from the Silver Forums on 925-1000. Don't know if yours is as old as the one in question there, but the company name is probably right.

http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=40897&p=115149&hilit=BMF#p115149

 

Here's another discussion (you'll need to click on the link to the pictures to see the mark.) In this case, silverplated.

http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=13394&p=29784&hilit=BMF#p29784

 

charging camera I will pic in a few minutes. thanks for the help

 

The R!3 is very small, best I could do on the photo. With loupe definitely R13

 

You're absolutely right about what it says.

If the 13 is a lot mark, that means it's solid silver of 812/1000 fineness. But what that R means is a mystery to me.

 

ya, I know, it confused me too. I am aware of 16-12 fineness marks. These spoons are part of a mixed lot of German silver and silverplate of mixed age, some fairly early 1875 to fairly late 1940s.

 

I have been watching this thread in hopes someone had an answer to the R-13 mark on the Berndorf Metalware Factory Alexander Schoeller and Co. Needless to say, I haven't a clue. Following is a link to descriptions of their marks and history. Do note, No. 26, Table 4 mark appears identical with the double headed Austrian mark (coat-of-arms of Austria-Hungary) and the BMF with the MF cojoined. It says this mark is "very rare" with the following:

"c1870-c1875

"An early mark for the BMF Alexander Schoeller items made from pure nickel silver. It consists of the two-headed eagle (coat of arms of Austria-Hungary) and the inscription "BMF" (the letters "M" and "F" are joined). Very rare."

Scroll a good 1/2 of the way down the page to Table 4:
http://www.ascasonline.org/articoloFEBBRA191.html

--- Susan

 

Thanks for link, Susan. Read through the whole post. I am beginning to think, if the BMF mark is circa 1879-1875 that the very small R13 may have been added later. Perhaps in the 1930s, as some kind of import mark to USA (as where the spoon is now located).

 

oops 1870-1875 not 1879- that what I get trying to type without my glasses on.

 

To the best of my knowledge USA has never used any form of import marking or any other official fineness marks.

 

lol back to something German. Maybe R13 is silverplate indication. How do you tell the difference between 100% nickel silver and silver plated nickel without chemicals?

 

Generally the plated stuff will show wear at the most rubbed points. Unpolished cupro nickel will look slightly yellow. Unhappily, neither are worth beans when it comes to common flatware.

 

The German (and French) indicator of silverplate "thickness" or quality would not have an odd number - should end in 0. (Although there is an exception referenced toward the end of this article on the subject that I doubt applies here.)

http://www.925-1000.com/a_platenumbers.html

If the number of grams of silver used in plating was as low as 13, you would surely see the kind of wear AF talks about above.

 

Don't forget Berndorf was an Austrian firm back in the 1870s - not German. In 1938 when the Frederick Krupp company of Germany took over majority control of the company, I don't know if the firm was still considered Austrian, German & Austrian, or German. That name Krupp always turns my stomach when I see or say it because of their Nazi affiliations, WWII activities, massive use of slave labor.

--- Susan

 

Susan: Origin noted.