Daguerreotype vs Ambrotype Identification?

New member here. I've been collecting 20th century photographs for many years and just started dipping my toes into 19th century photography. I recently purchased a few Tin Types, CDV's & Cabinets. The lot also contains what look like a few Daguerreotypes or Ambrotypes. I cannot definitively tell which. I've read about the various Daguerreotype sizes, reflective/mirror like quality, backings, etc., but I'm still not certain these are Daguerreotypes. The sizing matches, but neither seem to have a mirror like quality. Was wondering if someone could take a peek at the images below, and enlighten me on what type photographs these might be? As an aside, is it common for eBay sellers and the like to remove Daguerreotype photos and put in Tin Types? I noticed some the Daguerreotypes I've seen on eBay seem to have fuzzy language about the provenance of the cases, photos within, and sometimes type of photo (Daguerreotype vs Ambrotype vs Tin Type). Just want to try to educate myself in case I decide to purchase any more Daguerreotypes. Thanks in advance for any feedback/comments.

 

Here's a good read.
https://www.daguerreiansociety.org/facts-about-daguerreotypes_faq/

James.

 

Thanks James, I found that website last night, very helpful. I think my biggest hang up at present is that it's hard to tell about the mirror like reflection that I've read about. It may be I need to remove the photos from the casings, which I've been hesitant to do. So looking at the ones with the case glass makes it hard to tell because of the case glass. The one w/o the glass looks a little like a tin type to me, but I'm pretty new to 19th century photography. I guess I'll remove the photos to get a better look. Maybe that is my problem Thanks for the quick reply/link!

 

No daguerreotypes in this group above. They're unmistakable, they look just like mirrors.

 

The two ladies above look like tin types.

 

Thank you for the replies. I just got done photographing these a little better, thus got a closer look at the cases, backing, etc. I think most of these are tin types in what look to me like daguerreotype or ambrotype cases. Is that what those cases are in my photos? Was it common for people to put tin types or CDV's in these types of cases back in the day? Lastly, I think I want to remove all these photos from these cases. As long as they are tin type photos in the cases, they should be ok to remove, correct? I'm pretty comfortable knowing what a tin type looks like. Just not as certain about a daguerreotype or ambrotype photo. Thanks again for the feedback!

 

The smaller one looks like it might be either an ambrotype or a tintype. It is difficult to tell from your photo, but if you can identify what the "carrier" is (the material the photograph is made on) you can easily distinguish between the two. A tintype is made on a piece of lacquered iron. If you have a magnet you might check and see if it is attracted to the carrier. An ambrotype is made on a piece of glass, either clear glass with a black lacquer coating, or dark glass.

The larger one looks more like a tintype, but from your photo we can't see the back of the carrier at all. The paper mat around the image is more typical of tintypes.

A daguerreotype is made on a copper plate, with silver on the side that will receive the image.

The earliest types of photographs - daguerreotypes, ambrotypes - were protected by being mounted in hinged cases. Early tintypes could also be mounted the same way. It is not uncommon to find photographs separated from their cases, and empty cases reused for photographs that they did not originally house.

 

The same cases were used for daguerreotypes, ambrotypes, and tintypes. Daguerreotypes were going out of fashion while ambrotypes and tintypes were coming in. Your larger photo is definitely a tintype. I see it is in a paper sleeve that was used for tintypes, under the mat and preserver. Usually you do not see the paper sleeves used that way. They usually stand alone. I suspect this case originally had a different image in it and was reused for the tintype.

On rare occasions early ambrotypes had a darkened metal backing and it might attract a magnet. That is rare, though I do have one or two like that. Also, some ambrotypes have a black piece of paper or cloth in the back with no black coating on the glass and no dark glass. I have several of those. And also several that have the black lacquer-like coating or that are printed on dark glass, which is often called "ruby" glass due to its red or purple color.

That all being said, I think it's likely that the smaller one is a tintype, too.

 

@Jerry Coker , this is a good site for basic, clear descriptions on the differences among various photo types: http://phototree.com/
Click on the Identification area to see the descriptions.

It can be fairly difficult to see the daguerreotype image without turning it at an angle or holding a darkened piece of paper in front of it. It has a shiny silver surface like a mirror. This is different from the shine of the glass that is above it and other cased images. It's literally like a mirror and until you look at the correct angle the image can almost seem buried in the reflection. Notice the example in the phototree site, where he took a photo at a couple of different angles and only part, or almost none, of the image is visible. http://phototree.com/id_dag.htm

That being said, until you see it in person it might be hard to understand....

I find it difficult to take clear photos of daguerreotype images. This is one where I was somewhat successful.

 

A daguerreotype image may also show tarnishing of the silver. You can see it on Figtree3's example, and more so on mine. Also, it always needs to be said ... do not touch, clean, or wipe the surface at all!


and a shot of the copper on the back side.

James.

 

This example shows worse tarnish and scratches cause by a single wipe across the surface. It also shows you the nature of the surface, like a aged silver platter or coin, it looks like silver.

 

This ambrotype has the black coating on the back of the glass. Note this has two panes of glass adhered together. The image on the back of the top pane, and the black on the back of the second pane.

 

Thanks for all the replies, feedback & the link (very helpful link!). Much appreciated! This morning I ended up removing all the photos from these cases, starting w/ the worst condition photo just in case. All 5 photos ended up being tin types as suspected. I didn't know tin types were sometimes put in these kind of cases. I assume these specific cases were originally designed for daguerreotypes or ambrotypes, and maybe the family eventually put tin types in them. I bought them off eBay w/ some cdv's. Can you recommend a daguerreotype collector/seller to buy a daguerreotype photo? I'd like to have a reasonably inexpensive one just to see what it looks like, for the future if I decide to collect a few. eBay feels a bit like the wild west right now, for buying daguerreotypes, as I've seen wording & photos that don't seem to be accurate from what little I know about these old photos. Also, I use binders w/ archival quality Ultra Pro plastic pages for protecting some of my old baseball cards. Can I use those same Ultra Pro pages for protecting/storing my cdv's, and maybe even the tin types that fit? Thanks again for all information, photos, etc. I really appreciate it!

 

I have a set of three coming up on Eboo - they go live on the 28th. (scheduled listing). They were found all in one case, rattling around at an estate sale.

 

Thanks, if you want to send me your eBay ID, I'll check them out. I think they have private messaging here?

 

They're a "scheduled" listing, but I found the uploaded images.

 

The one w/ the two little girls and squirming baby is cute. I guess we've never found a way to keep little ones from squirming

 

Paregoric.(LOL)

 

Just in case, these end tomorrow. Just realized ... and just saw that somebody bid on them.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203271978663