Cloisonné origin / date help

Hello

Besides an antique Chinese soy jug and a silk picture, I was not familiar with what this item was, only learning after some research that it is a Cloisonné bowl or pot.

Given the workmanship required, I have a whole new appreciation for these pieces.

What I have not been able to discover is whether it is Chinese or Japanese.

Looking at the many images online I only became more confused. I was leaning towards Japanese, as the only bowls I could find with this swirl pattern kept coming up Japanese. I didn’t realize until doing a comparison between the bowl and many images that the little circles are even randomized to some extent, crazy.

The last picture is of the bottom. There is what looks like a partial capitol “A” and either that’s it or the rest is glazed over.

Anyways, if anyone has any experience with these pieces and could help identify its origin, possible date that would be appreciated. I hope I've posted in the best forum – Thanks

 

This was interesting,though I still cant tell the difference.
http://www.collect-sell.com/japanese-cloisonne-vs-chinese-cloisonne/

 

Someone once told me that a blue bottom indicates Chinese cloisonne, but I have no idea if that's accurate. It seems like johnny's article supports this, if I'm not misreading it.

"The bottom of the base of Chinese cloisonné is coated with enamel. This was done to strengthen the base for the repeated kiln firings. The high heat of the kiln softened the copper base. If both sides of the base were not coated with enamel, the base could crack or warp. Typically, Chinese counter enamel is medium blue or teal in color."

 

Please always give the dimensions.

"Possible date...". Best guess is 1990-2016. It lacks any signs of age, and no real care was taken in its creation; low quality= rapid, sloppy production for cheap decorator ware. Are those glue globs holding body to base?

 

We really need a size. This could be a Chinese salt dip at 1 1/2" or a candy bowl missing its lid at 5-7".

I agree with spring that it is not old. However, I would put it after the 1960s. The newer pieces have even more spacing in the background, between the circles.

Oh and I vote Chinese.

 

Same here. Prunus blossoms, blue base... Chinese.

 

Chinese.

The randomized circles/swirls are clouds.

 

Hi,
My vote is also Chinese. Due to clouds and the blue bottom. The Prunus would be better looking if Japanese even if done sloppily.
greg

 

This is amusing, I had created a very involved website, with about 16 long pages of information, categories based on dates, and a mark section. To help the identification of Chinese and Japanese cloisonne table top pieces, and this site link has copied much of what I wrote about it. The site was called idcloisonne.com and was alive from 2008-2014.

Too bad they did not ask or give me the credit for the information....

 

This is Chinese cloisonne, part of a set of two, a salt and a pepper container, this is the small salt bowl, the pepper was in a shaker with usual top, and the same cloisonne decorated body. That is based on a small size, if larger, could be the bottom of a lidded box.
Dating is probably mid 20th century. I will add an image of a complete set from my files or from google, as I have thousands of images I have archived for my previous cloisonne project, takes time to find the right one.
The decor represents the season of Spring, with tree blossoms, and pale green background, it looks like hand applied cloisonne, not machine made, so that is why the dating is earlier. The scroll type of background wires is one of the most often used. The enamel also shows some deterioration and oxidation, which confirm the date as well as the worn gilding on the copper metal base.

 

They should have, but that's the internet for you. I'm sure a lot of what is being written on this forum ends up on other sites without credits as well.

 

AJ, I never minded if someone asked to use the info, even the use of some pictures, except for the 'rare mark' ones, I started putting my site name on them.




More and more now, pictures and information travel far and wide, Pinterest is a good example. I have my own boards on there. I find it useful for access, when I change computers and want to see something specific, and also for study and groupings of pieces. But there is a lot of misinformation, so not too great for accuracy.

 

Very wise, I was thinking of doing the same for the photos in our Etsy shops. Can you recommend a program?

 

So glad to have folks on board that know cloisonne. I have an affinity for it, but know diddlysquat about it.

Toomanytocount, I have used your site before and have seen it referenced on ebay when someone was looking for information on their vase or pendant.
.

 

Uh oh, toomanytocount, it seems that web address has been hijacked. If it's not too late to edit your post, you might want to post a warning to folks.

I went to it thinking that the info would still be up, but I got a warning about it from my security software when I did.
.

 

Thank you for saying so, that was how it all started, I wrote an Ebay guide to identify cloisonne, and got 22,000 hits within a few years. Was number 3 in the guide activity list.

I shut my cloisonne site down in fall of 2014, as the general interest was decreasing, and the cost and upkeep no longer seemed worthwhile. I did have Chinese offers for the domain name but they would not give me what it was worth. Don't know who owns it now, but not surprised it has been revived.

Thanks for letting me know, I will have a look.

 

@toomanytocount

Was this your website?
We so miss it and often use it. It was a wonderful site.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140102161143/http://idcloisonne.com/

 

I like an older version of photoscape, got it for free from the internet, there is a new version now, but harder to use, which sounds silly I know. Once you get used to a certain software, it's hard to change and get used to a new one.

Anyway this image software has all kinds of useful things you can do to photos, including adding a box and text inside it, there are more intricate and attractive options too. They also have a combine image option, which comes in handy for sites which wont allow more than 4 to 5 images, such as Etsy.

 

That is it, brings back fond memories, when I see the background, which is from a fine Chinese large 'millefleurs' cloisonne dish dating 1910 or so.

 

Thanks for the info.
Luckily Etsy just changed that a couple of weeks ago, which saves me from having to send prospective buyers additional pictures.
We can now add 10 images.