Antique Russian silver cloisonne open salt and spoon - help please

Discussion in 'Metalware' started by Bookahtoo, Sep 15, 2018.

  1. Bookahtoo

    Bookahtoo Moderator Moderator

    I got these in with a box of Danish sterling brooches and spoons last weekend. I think I've figured out that the salt was made in St. Petersburg between 1908 and 1926. I can't figure out the maker.
    I really have no clue about the spoon. Help!

    Sorry about the photos - I tried. :oops:

    saltspoon.JPG

    bottom.JPG

    bottommark.JPG

    spoon.JPG

    bowlback.JPG

    spoonmark.JPG
     
  2. DragonflyWink

    DragonflyWink Well-Known Member

    Usually prefer not commenting on old, or supposedly old Russian silver, but to my eye, these do not look right at all...

    ~Cheryl
     
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  3. Bookahtoo

    Bookahtoo Moderator Moderator

    Really? I know absolutely nothing about Russian silver so I appreciate any help or advice.
    The Kokoshnik mark on the bottom of the salt does look like the one from 1908 on the 925-1000 site.
    Beyond that, I wasn't getting anywhere. That's why I'm asking you all. :shame:
     
  4. Shangas

    Shangas Underage Antiques Collector and Historian

    '84' is '84 Zolotnik', if I remember my Russian marking. Which is about 88% silver.
     
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  5. DragonflyWink

    DragonflyWink Well-Known Member

    There is an edible amount of faked Russian silver, of widely varying quality both in the manufacture of the items and the marks - for me, just the overall look of these pieces and the workmanship on the cloisonne point to fakes, would guess Chinese, though they were and are made in numerous places. Would suggest having an expert look at them before offering them as genuine, perhaps I'm mistaken...

    ~Cheryl
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
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  6. Bookahtoo

    Bookahtoo Moderator Moderator

    Thanks Cheryl - I'll do that!!!
     
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  7. Fid

    Fid Well-Known Member

    judy likes this.
  8. Any Jewelry

    Any Jewelry Well-Known Member

    That was my first feeling as well.
    Book, they are lovely, but there is a lot of fake 'Russian' silver out there.:(
    I hope you didn't pay too much, and the Danish silver makes up for it.
     
  9. Bev aka thelmasstuff

    Bev aka thelmasstuff Colored pencil artist extraordinaire ;)

    They really look like they match.
     
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  10. Lecollectionneur

    Lecollectionneur Well-Known Member

    On the first one, it's with the kokoshnik to the right, with the greek letter alpha behind the kokoshnik, and the dates you give, on the second one it's not possible to read the letter for me, the makers are not on the Postnikova which goes to the war in date.
    The quality of the official hallmark and the less quality for the work are in my opinion normal for communist era made silver after 1920 more than a copy.

    The silversmiths make superb quality just after the war until 1920s when a lot of them goes to free countries with the help of governemnts as you can read in the biography of François Birbaum "Premier Maître du joaillier Fabergé" for example.
    I'm not a specialist about first world war politic but certainly in other countries you can found this date too for a big amount of refugees from Russia.
    About copies, if you can found in enamel small black dots and small pierced bubbles, it's a good sign of original piece, especially on small and cheap items.
    They were a lot of small makers who use wood coal when the greater ones have gaz for heating enamel and it's was nearly impossible to prevent such problems.
     
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  11. DragonflyWink

    DragonflyWink Well-Known Member

    Sounds reasonable regarding the quality of the work...


    And to correct my other post (darned autocorrect), edible = incredible.


    ~Cheryl
     
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  12. Bookahtoo

    Bookahtoo Moderator Moderator

    Here is another picture of the back of the spoon:

    spoonback.jpg
     
  13. Bookahtoo

    Bookahtoo Moderator Moderator

    Cheryl -

    I didn't even notice. :D
     
  14. Lecollectionneur

    Lecollectionneur Well-Known Member

    The surface finish is very russian, they were not polished as in other countries, the Fabergé export silverware was polished for example as the customers need but the russian silversmith made a raw finish(or like sanded) when compared with european countries.
     
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  15. DragonflyWink

    DragonflyWink Well-Known Member

    Yesterday, I presented both pieces to the 925-1000 Russian forum for Bookahtoo and while one of the members initially felt the salt was "not authentic", another posted maker IDs with citations from Postnikova-Loseva, there is now an ongoing discussion regarding the salt, and a good chance it will continue. The good news is, looks like, as Lecollectionneur suggests, they are authentic...

    Salt: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=51741

    Spoon: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=51742

    ~Cheryl
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
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  16. Lecollectionneur

    Lecollectionneur Well-Known Member

    When they say that on this forum is a really good new because I've seen a lot of pieces certainly good which was discussed by some members as fakes, the more pleasant is that I've sold on Ebay a piece at a member which gives it as a fake one year before…
    10 years ago I make a press article about fakes russian hallmarks which is on the web in english, it's another subject but it can interest you to know how I proceed at this time, now they are most sophisticated methods to be more sure if possible or needed.
    I've found the second press article made in may 2003 about faking an Oklad with the lectrolysis proceed, it's in french but as a pdf easy to put in a translator, the pictures are not so good because not made with numeric but if it is some interest I can scan the originals which are archived.
    The all first thing when you have a piece is to determine if it is a financial interest to make that item, here for a small piece without any name, it's totally idiot to make a copy which has a value under 150$ in good condition and to make false traces of age which can affect the value.
    A lot of things can be make on a "tired" item to refresh it, a new gilding is the first one and here you are on a red line between a normal sale and a forgery, but if you mention that it's no more a problem, then it's a very fine red line to let this information for the next customer…
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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