Featured 2 Similar, But Not Alike, Primitive Asian Bowls

Provenance is Dutch East Indies acquisition, pre WWII.

#1 is 8" dia., with a 4" inside foot-rim, ~1 3/8 rim height, 9 3/4oz.
#2 is 8" dia., with a 3 5/8" inside foot-rim, 1 3/8" rim height, 10 7/8 oz.

I use the word primitive with some reservation, because the base rim on both of them is pretty unusual; many granular remnants from the kiln floor are stuck to the glaze near the unglazed, outside-chamfered edge, both inside & outside that rim. They both seem crude, somehow, to me.

#1 may be older; it is slightly warped & doesn't sit flat. #2 seems to show 'ramming' marks radiating from the inner base toward the inner rim (pic 6); it rests quite flat. It has also been repaired; a long & deep piece of rim, nearly half diameter, has been nicely reattached.

The overall decorative motif is the similarity: the central panel is octagonal with peaks an' a white border, 'tho the scene within is unique to each. Toward the rim, 8 panels with blue floral representation against a speckled red on white ground are in common, as are the green semi-circles containing blue dots.

On the back, #1 has 6 of the blue 'cloud?' panels, #2 has only 4; they are all set off by 4 red strokes.

And then there are the makers marks: both in red, within a square cartouche, but each very unique...an' 'tho #2 looks perhaps Chinese, I wouldn't bet on that; #1 looks a mystery to me.

I will be most grateful for any help with these; Thanks for lookin'!

 

That's interesting. The style is Kraak from the late Wanli (Chinese), but afaik they never made them in polychrome. The ridges to the underside are known as 'chatter', but these almost look like they were added on purpose. Then there is the gilt, which would never have survived from the Wanli period, and also the marks which I also can't place.

So I'm stumped, I doubt they would be intended as forgeries as making them in polychrome would seem to be pointless. The construction feels right for late Ming, but they look wrong decoratively. Is the polychrome overglaze? Just wondering if someone could have overpainted originals.

 

No; only the gold, on all of these, is overglaze.
I should have mentioned that...sorry.

 

Mmm, really not sure then. Not come across anything quite like this before, perhaps you need to run them by a specialist in case they are some sort of Kangxi oddity. They don't look like repro's to me, but something is odd.

 

To my very untrained and inexperienced eye, those marks look sort of made upm resembling but not real characters.