Featured Blue flow help - Cauldon Messina ... or fake?

Hello folks! Just opened a job lot of very dirty old blue and white today from Belgium. Expected villeroy and boch (which I got) but there were a few other bonus pieces which I can't ID...help please!

The pattern matches Cauldon 'Messina' but the mark does not. The only exact instance of a mark is shown on Kovels as being a contemporary fake (but it's on a different pattern) and they note: "The original of this mark is unknown". So I suppose there is a possibility that this is the original mark that is unknown, rather than the later fakes.

I don't think it's overly wishful thinking here, as these pieces are good quality flow blue, nicely printed, shaded and detailing and they are clearly of age. I'm thinking they could be contemporary fakes (as in still antiques themselves now) but the nice qualitsofas me a little confused.

So what say you?? I'd love to hear any thoughts!

Thank you !

 

Ps sorry it wasn't on Kovels that I saw the near mark - it was Real or repro... here's a link... https://www.realorrepro.com/article/More-confusing-marks-on-new-Flow-Blue

 

What if this pattern was made over a long period of time? It looks like a Brown-Westhead Moore mark here: http://www.thepotteries.org/allpotters/261c.htm

 

JMHO, but I would be surprised to see a repro with that brown staining...or am I nuts

 

I was thinking the same thing. Also about the brown staining.

 

No it's possible! but there are other signs of significant wear too, inner rim and foot rim wear, etc. They've been around a good while, for sure. It's nit that fake painted out brown you get on some faux antique wares. I'vnever seen a plate aged like this that's less than 80 years old, but I think it's older still.

 

Thank you! I did see that (though I didn't notice before that the company Brown Westhead became Cauldon later so there's a link to the later pattern match which is interesting)...but unfortunately loads of companies used that lion & unicorn mark or a variation, because it's a royal warrant mark (it was even copied outside of the UK in the 19th century to capitalise on the fashion for Staffordshire pottery on the continent) so unless it's an exact match it's a little hard to attribute. It's a pickle!

 

It seems we all think it's older....so I guess the question is: were they fakin' blue flow a century or so ago??

 

That’s not fake, and no, they didn’t fake it in the nineteenth century.

 

Thank you OBB! I just didn't know when this whole thing started...

 

I'm fairly clueless on this, but is that mark a lion on the left and a unicorn on the right??

 

Yup, looks it.

 

OK, SO it looks like underneath it says "MAYER POTTERY MFG CO", not sure it helps, but found this site about it, I think.......

https://antiquesandauctionnews.net/...hina-From-The-Mayer-Pottery:-A-Brief-History/

 

Here's a BWM coat of arms mark from the 1860's.

Another view.

 

Now that is interesting! Thank you so much. That warrant looks like the match for my mark but less blurry.. I wonder why it doesn't have the registration marks though?

Too late here now to look at it properly but that's a key piece of the puzzle I reckon!

Thank you again @JB Miller !

 

Thank you for looking at this! I don't think this is a match though, the warrant of a lion and unicorn is actually super common - anyone who supplied wares to a royal for 5+ years could use it so that's a lot of companies. Where did you see the Mayer MFG co? Did you see it on my images or the one you found ?

Thanks again !

 

This site shows some variations by various companies of this type of mark.

http://www.thepotteries.org/mark/arms/english.htm

 

@KylieS, MY ERROR, I THOUGHT it was your image, but on going back and looking again, I must have pulled it off of one I think I saw on ebay.........SO sorry!!!!

 

Gosh no need to apologise I appreciate you looking! It's a confusing mark situation interesting one though

 

Just a little update that the same vendor has told me she has another dish for sale in this pattern, larger and deeper - and this new one looks to have a British registration mark! So looks like certainly Staffordshire and I will be able to definitively answer the date question too. I'll update when I get it