Featured Persian box, dating

Apparently, the box has a mosaic of khatam. The painting is similar to tempera on ivory (for a camel plate of a very large size?).I find it difficult to say something about dating, especially since the style of the Persian miniature changed little over time. I found similar images as well as the 17-18th century, and the 19th, and the first quarter of the 20th century.I wonder what kind of school of painting and what time? it is difficult to understand something, then the object is similar to one that is more than 100-150 years old in appearance.

 

Yes the inlay is khatamkari. A charming box, although it has had a difficult life.
It looks early 20th century to me, so more than 100 years sounds right.
The painting style is based on classic Persian miniatures, and done on camel bone, not ivory.

 

The wood from which the box is made has darkened quite a lot. There were also thoughts that approximately the last third of the 19th century or the beginning of the 20th.But on the other hand, it’s hard to say something definite without similar examples, maybe a thing from the 18th century))? Little whether)).I don’t have enough knowledge to date Persian miniatures, objects from the 16th and early 20th centuries look very similar to me, as I tried to compare))I can only say that the thing looks like it is a hundred years old or more)).

Or have you seen similar boxes from the early 20th century?

 

I would expect higher quality from the 18thC. For either tourism or export, the market then would have been much smaller and more exclusive.

 

Well, in fact, the object looked more beautiful before, it seems that the mosaic was almost all surrounded by gold. now only slight traces of it remain. The mosaic at the top of the box is quite dark and worn.Before the box looked clearly more beautiful))
And the mosaic is actually very small, it looks large in the photo))

 

Ditto.
Charming though the box is, it looks to me like an example of the lower quality during later years of the Qajar dynasty. The demands of early tourism led to lesser craftspeople setting up business.

Most old and antique items looked more beautiful before, and as I said, this one has had a hard life.
The gold is brass, used a lot in khatamkari. Real gold was not used, and would never be used on a souvenir box like this.

 

Thanks, maybe so. The 17th century items are actually quite high quality. century)).

By the way, I had a question about Chinese cloisonne.
https://www.antiquers.com/threads/cloisonnet-china-16th-century.77438/
what do you think about them?
I posted a blue plate on a historical forum. The forum wrote that the style of the late 16th century or early 17th, but the work is rough, similar to an outdated imitation of the 20th century.
But they can't say for sure. maybe a crudely made original of the 16th century, but it is not particularly valuable.

It is still interesting to find out the question, is the object real or not?

 

Very nice, but I think it is best to take them to an expert. Those need to be held in hand and looked at closely.

 

In my amateurish opinion, the cloisonne just looks no more crude than some of the 16th century items that I found)). maybe even better done
Well, they just wrote that it’s not really clear, probably)).
By the way, I'll try to put the box on that historical forum.

There are people from Iran there. Perhaps they are familiar with such subjects))

though the forum has blocked all Russian ip addresses. I can only access the site through a proxy server.
historum.com

In other Western forums, when moderators check the account after registration, they immediately delete the account. As I suspect, also just because I'm from Russia.
This is discrimination on ethnic or regional grounds, not sanctions)). As if all people are to blame, collective responsibility)).

I'm glad that at least they don't block here)).

 

That forum is more for historical events and trends, not for items.
I have experience with Khatam boxes, both for the Iranian market and as souvenirs. Others here have too.

But if you would like another type of input, you could try the Encyclopaedia Iranica:
https://www.iranicaonline.org/pages/about/
Contact:
https://www.iranicaonline.org/pages/contact-us

I don't think they block any type of account, and they are a good information site for Iranian culture.

 

Thanks a lot! So you've seen similar boxes and they date from around the beginning of the 20th century?

Well, in general, I found the greatest similarity with objects from the 1830s and until about the last quarter of the 19th century.
If by the way the mosaic pattern is made or the way the painting is made.
But you still need to look at the subject in the complex))
And by the way, items made after 1920-30 can be of very high quality, as I found.

 

Yes, I have, which is why I gave the reply I did.

Yours is typically late Qajar, so you may have seen boxes from the last years of the 19th century that looked like yours. Older ones would have better quality painting, with a different 'feel'. Difficult to explain.

The most important 20th century revival of Persian art began after 1950, with some excellent art even until now.

 

I also think that this is the end of the 19th or the beginning of the 20th century, but it is interesting to know other opinions.
Sorry if that)).
For example, with Russian icons everything is very complicated. The fact is that in the 18th century the style of icon painting began to change, borrowings from Western European painting appeared. But at the end of the 18th century, the fashion for the old style of icons of the 16th-17th centuries again went.
The imitators reached their greatest success towards the end of the 19th century, when they were able to clear away ancient images from layers of varnish and inscriptions.
At that time, many fakes of ancient painting were created.
But on the other hand, not everything is so clear.
they also wrote to me on the forums that the colors and inscription are not the same, the appearance is difficult to explain, but this is not a icon of the 17th century, but a icon of the late 19th century.
I uploaded photos to specialists at an institute, for example, the Tretyakov Institute, they answered me that maybe painting could be both the end of the 17th century and the 19th century, you have to look live.
And on the forums, almost everyone definitely wrote that this was the end of the 19th century)).
Also, one of the frequent arguments among experts from the forum is that the painting is rough or the inscriptions are clumsy, this is definitely not the 17th century)).

There are even conflicts between scientists about the dating of icons. One of the researchers of icons - Baranov, made a chronological scale for the use of paints. That is, he revealed that certain paints were used only up to a certain time.
So, he examined some icons and came to the conclusion that those icons that all scientists considered stylistically to be the beginning of the 19th century were painted in the 17th century. In the museums where these icons hang, they were not in a hurry to agree with him and remained unconvinced about the dating.

 

No need to apologize, it is always good to do research.

True, Russian icons are notoriously difficult to date. And there are many fakes, even painted on antique wood.

But this humble souvenir box is a world apart from Russian icons, in so many ways.

 

About 20-30 percent of 19th century icons, according to my observations, are painted on boards from the 16th century to the end of the 17th century.Then the boards were used a second time, moreover, sometimes there are remains of ancient painting under the painting of the 19th century, and sometimes the ancient image is almost in good condition.

 

So you think this is a souvenir for tourists to Persia in the late 19th century or early 20th century?

 

There was a man here in the Netherlands, in the 1970s-80s, who imported antique wood from Russia and painted Russian style icons on it. He made a fortune, but I think he got caught.
I met him once when I still had an antiques shop, in the early 80s, arrogant fellow, not nice at all.

 

Yes I do.

 

Ha, well, the remakes of the 1970-80s are quite easy to distinguish even if they try to fake the old style)).And it is more difficult to recognize fake icons of the early 20th century.Usually they want to fake the icons of the early 20 century .Icons in the style of Russian Art Nouveau in silver are especially expensive; they most often try to fake it.These icons are sometimes more expensive than some icons of the 16th century.There are also many icons on European auctions of the late 19th century with a background cleaned to white gesso. Such fakes are trying to pass off at Western auctions as originals of the 17th century.

 

This was when there was still an 'Iron Curtain' and long before the internet. There wasn't as much knowledge for the average Western buyer, especially not beginning collectors with too much money.

When I met him in the early 80s, he had stopped selling icons and gone on to Asian art. Which is how I met him, I had an Asian antiques shop. I never did business with him, I didn't want to.