Featured Here's a couple of my swords....how does one date them ?

Hahahaha !!!!!!!
As soon as I put the question mark in the title , I knew the 1st answer !
A. you ask each one's father for permission !


But really, is it possible to determine when they were made....by the mfg....or maybe the owners name ????

Here's the first one......

 

And here's the second one......

 

The 2nd is what I like to call Kick Ass , cuz the decoration is really over the top, so I figure the owner must have been of a high rank in whatever organization he belonged too !
The 1st one is more your run of the mill Knights sword.

 

The first one is probably 1920s, the other may be Knights Templar and late 19th C. THe hilt may be ivory and the T may be for Templar or possibly a Tyler's sword. The tyler is a bloke who stands by the door to ensure no outsiders see the secret rites.

Since the secret rites are in general pretty comical, this is understandable.

 

I'd call these big kids toys rather than swords.

 

...a piercing reply from Af...

 

. Yeah he's made his point as usual. I'll drag out the book sometime this weekend.

 

I think they are beautiful. And thanks for the puns, all!

 

First one: Gleason is listed in the book under "agents, retailers, and distributors" so was not made by them. 2nd one has a cross on the grip, not the letter someone thought. Sword was made for Mr. M. Van Gilder. Will look further in book tonight, to find same swords pictured, that takes a while.

 

The 1st as noted on it is a Knights of Columbus sword. It is their Columbus head, facing front, pommel sword that according to the following page started in the 1950s. Their sword before then had the head of Columbus facing to the side. I have tried to find dates for the T.C. Gleason Mfg. Co. with not much luck. It seems they were probably distributing fraternal swords from at least 1900 to maybe yesterday. Some of the Gleason's swords were made in Germany. As Spring said, Gleason is considered a fraternal regalia supplier. If you Google "T.C. Gleason Mfg. sword" many links to their swords will come up. Here is some history on Knights of Columbus swords:
http://kcfourth.org/history-of-the-sword/

The 2nd sword is a typical Knight's Templar sword as af said. The crown with the emerging cross (Cross of Life), no lack of Maltese crosses, with the knight's helmet pommel are usually a dead giveaway to being Knight's Templar, Masonic. The Wm. Scully Co. was a regalia supplier and may still be to fraternal orders. Seems the company was found in 1877:
https://www.williamscully.com/
https://www.williamscully.com/index.php/history

They were the regalia supplier to the Canadian Military in the early 1900s and into WWI.
It is an Acrobat *.pdf file:
http://www.williamscully.ca/documents/wsl_history.pdf

At present, I can't find a Scully Knights Templar sword. Here is a very ornate Knights Templar sword with the seller claiming it is 24K gold plated that is similar to yours, not identical. The page says the grip is ABS, plastic. I don't know if yours is of the same material or not.

Here is a little info on Knights Templar swords. It has a listing of some regalia sword makers. Scully isn't listed, which may mean??? Sculley wasn't a supplier of Knights Templar swords in the states. This may be a British related (Canadian, Australian, etc...) Knights Templar sword???
http://blog.templarhistory.com/2010/04/masonic-knight-templar-swords/

Fraternal swords are noted for being over-the-top and these are no exception; however, fraternal swords are notorious for being decorative in purpose only.

--- Susan

 

A little more on the K of C sword. With the dove, cross and globe means it is a 4th degree K of C sword. Here is a page on the 4th degree:
http://www.porthopeknights.ca/about_fourth_degree.htm#Sword History

There was a query on such a K of C sword back in May 2014 over on eBay. It was by a different sword company. Ebay has messed up the order of query and replies. The #8 reply is really the original query/question. It may be of interest to you:
http://community.ebay.com/t5/Antiqu...ition-Knights-of-Columbus-sword/td-p/20460066

--- Susan

 

Thank you....thank you all for your expert opinions & puns !!

So...these ' toys ' do not carry any makers marks on them, only the distributors ?

I can see that for the Montreal blade, it''s just a boring stamp, but the Chicago blade carries the same gold washed etching as the design down the blade .
For a distributor to do all that work , they must have etched a lot of blanks to make that worth their while.....

The handle on the Templar ' toy ' , has a sheen on it & hairline cracks running up and down and side to side . The main cracks you can see have been glued back together. I can see where a lesser detective might see it as ivory but it's some kind of man made material.

I used these to decorate a main hall fireplace mantle of an old house I once had, along with a Toledo made broad sword between them.
It made a kinda cool statement !

Thanks again for all your help !

 

I pronounce the happy couple... "lance and knife".

 

Some of the info I'm seeing in AFS by Marino et al conflicts with what's on a page Susan linked, not that it's any big deal. Sword no. 1 is exactly pictured on pp. 96 as "KM 209." Caption is "K of C, Assembly, unsigned, 1910-19." From pp. 95: "in 1920, it was decreed that the Columbus pattern pommel face straight ahead when the sword was sheathed."

 

Well, that's confusing.....like you said....not a biggy....but...??

 

All my post was trying to say is that the book dates that sword to 1910-19.

 

> "in 1920, it was decreed that the Columbus pattern pommel face straight ahead when the sword was sheathed." <

Another "that's confusing" from my little corner of the world! Spring, a probably ignorant question, is there a difference when one says the pommel (Columbus head) is "facing forward when you look at the front of the sword" and when it says Columbus pommel face straight ahead when the sword was sheathed?" In other words is there a difference between facing forward from the front of the sword and facing straight ahead when sheathed? Does the book have a pic of the 4th degree K of C sword that they say is 1920? Does the book give a date for the Columbus pommel turnrd sideways? That page I linked to dates the sideways head back to the early 1930s.

Nowwww, I haven't a clue to the knowledgeable, reliability, of that website. Personally I have no experience or family related experience, with the K of C. Now as to Masonic (York Rites, Knights Templar, Scottish Rights, Shriners and everything from Rainbow Girls to whatever) I have had much personal and family related experience.

--- Susan

 

To add or rather to ask, when a sword is sheathed would the pommel be facing the same way if it "is worn hanging from the Service Baldric? According to the following:

"The second major type of sword, dates back to mid to late 1930's and has the head of Christopher Columbus, the Order's patron, on the grip cap. The sword is worn hanging from the Service Baldric on the left hip and Columbus' head is facing forward. If you were looking at the front of the sword, Columbus' head is facing left."

It is saying the 1930 sword if hanging from the baldric the head is facing forward and from the front of the sword the head is facing left. Found the follwing on The 1940-1950 swords. It says in through 1940s to 1950’s the emblem of the 4th degree was changed to the Traid. This sword as the Triad emblem. Also note the mention of the TC Gleason.

"The other change that was made is that the Triad Emblem of the Fourth Degree replaces the Emblem of the Order on the Guard. This type of sword appears to have been made through the late 1940's early 50's. These swords over the years seem to vary in length. The blades ranged between 26 and 27 1/2 inches with the sword grip and pommel adding another 6 inches. When in the scabbard they were between 35 and 37 inchesMost, if not all, of this type of sword were made by T.C. Gleason in Chicago Illinois.

"The third major type of sword is the one that is still in use today and began to be manufactured sometime in the 1940' or 50's. The most identifying characteristic of this type of sword is the that Columbus' head on the pommel (grip cap) is now facing forward when you look at the front of the sword or facing right when the sword is worn on the service baldric."

--- Susan

 

No difference to me between the two descriptions you give. The sword is worn hung from a baldric, on the wearer's left side. The book does show one sword just like Op's where Chris C. Looks straight out at you when you stand directly to the wearer's left, and says that orientation means the sword dates from 1910-19. In 1920 Chris was ordered to become forward-looking so he turned his head clockwise 90 degrees and kept it there forever. Book also shows a post-1920 sword with forward-looking Chris. I am guessing the book is more authoritative than the conflicting webpage but have no proof for you.

 

Susan-you like these fraternal swords and know a lot about them-I'd be happy to give you this nice book so you'd have it as another resource if you like, then I'd leave fraternal sword questions to you and whomever else wants to input, then I won't reply on them unless you give it up. Just send me a message with a shipping address.