Featured Running rooster

Does anyone recognise this mark, please? It's a walking or running rooster, facing right, with the number '6' above its back. It's probably in a five- or six-sided frame, but as it's on a narrow, 1 millimetre scent-dabber from a filigree-overlaid silver scent-bottle (see photos), the sides have been clipped. Looks rather like some French marks from the early 19th century, but not quite the same. Any ideas, folks?

 

Welcome on board!
I don't think your scent bottle is old enough to bear the French rooster mark...
Thinking Yugoslavia.
From my Tardy book:

 

Welcome to Antiquers, @scentman !

 

Thanks for that! Yes, looks very like it, although I am sure it is a number '6' at the top, and not a 'B' - is that possible? And have you any idea when it would have been made?

 

Thanks. Much appreciated!

 

Sorry, the Tardy book I have doesn't say for this mark... Plus, it doesn't have all of the marks .
Calling @DragonflyWink to the rescue!

 

It is a gorgeous bottle, scentman, and welcome.
Just wondering, is there another mark just under the rim of the bottle proper?



The shape looks like a Dutch sword mark. The Dutch made a lot of filigree.
In the early 19th century the Netherlands was French (Napoleon) and used French marks like the rooster. There were numbers for some of the assay offices, but I don't have a list of all of them.
If Dutch, the bottle could have been made during that time, and marked again after the sword marks were introduced, for resale for instance.

 

Brilliant, Any Jewelry! I think you're spot on. The 'sword mark' you mention had puzzled me. It is actually an applied piece of metal (see photo) which looked a bit out of place, considering its location, alignment and the quality of manufacture of the rest of the bottle. It is worn (polished) flat, but the shape is very similar to the Dutch 'sword mark D' in the 'www.925-1000.com' picture (attached), and the accompanying text (attached) suggests use from 1814.

Your info about the Netherlands being annexed by France was entirely new to me, and the Wikipedia entry (attached) confirms the dates as 1809 to 1813. This doesn't quite tie in with the date of use of the 'sword mark', though.

The 'shell shape' frame (courtesy of Fid)around the French manufacturer's mark from 1884, on items intended for export, is fascinating, and the shape certainly looks right. The 'symbol' mentioned could be the rooster, but where is the maker's initial (unless the '6' is actually a 'G')? And I don't understand the reference to "l'indication du titre en K ou M" - is there more following text which explains that?

This puzzle is fascinating!

 

Thanks for your efforts, anyway. I gather Tardy is far from perfect.

 

Thanks for the info, Fid. I haven't quite got the hang of this yet, and I thought your post was another one from Any Jewelry. Doh!

 

Please, could you return to your comment, edit, other options and click "full image", it will embed the pics full size in your text.
Much more easy to see

 

Tardy is perfect for people that understand French and who get the hand on one of the earlier versions.
the producer is stamping the frame - which form is the only mandatory part - and whatever sign he thinks fit as emblem of his company. there were even suspicions that the producers stamped what was asked for by the foreign merchants.
K is Karat. the use of ct, K etc. was not regulated for a long time in France partly due to German-speaking parts. M is for millième (thousandth).
"les ouvrages à bas titre" meaning that the silver was under the legal French minimum and not tested by the French authorities when leaving the country. so all in all it looks - on the pics too - a nice work for export.
the 6 could be Carat as well, which was used for silver too. would be a good idea to get it tested.

 

Merci, Fid (assuming you are French!). I now understand the 'K ou M' reference. I have never heard of carats being used for silver before. How many carats are there in 100% pure silver? If it's the same as for gold (24 carats), then 6 carats would only be 25% silver?

In your opinion, do you think the scent was manufactured in France after 1884, or do you think it may have been made in Holland much earlier, and then brought into France, where it was stamped for re-export abroad? I know for sure that silver filigree work of this sort was being made in the late 18th century (I have several examples in my collection, some English, with date letters)

I have been offered a 1985 edition of Tardy; is that early enough? Your thoughts are much appreciated.

 

here are the lists with the carats.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titre_au_millième
yes 6 carats is low and cheap.
why does a scent-bottle have a spoon stick for cocaine ?
if it was imported into France - supposed it didn't prove to be silver up to the French standards - it wouldn't even receive the ET mark - since 1864 for étranger.
Tardy. I can't - and probaly no one else can - when they dropped what and if certain details were dropped when translated.
I can't help you with the supposed dutch side of this item.

 

Thanks for the lists. I don't think it is a 'cocaine' spoon, though - it's just a length of round wire, which would serve for 'dabbing' a few drops of perfume onto a lady's skin.

I would be quite happy to think that it may have been made by a French manufacturer for export (the quality of the workmanship is exceptional), but to use 25% silver would be very odd for a French manufacturer, n'est ce pas? And it makes no sense with the (possible) Dutch 'sword mark', which guaranteed a minimum 83.3% purity.

It seems we shall probably never know the answer to this one, unfortunately, but thanks for trying to help! I have learned a lot from this, and I think I shall buy that copy of Tardy!

 

Exactly.

And it was never used in the Netherlands either. Foreign silver with that low a fineness would be considered BWG, 'Beneden Wettelijk Gehalte', or below legal fineness, and never be marked.
They even had trouble accepting .800, but did on and off, depending on trade or as support for silversmiths in Dutch East India.

 

Doubt there is any French or Dutch connection - looks like, as already suggested, a Yugoslavian small works .900 mark - some variants show up in Yugoslavian marks, and there isn't really much information, most likely because of years of tumult. The dense, well-done filigree is typical of Prizren (Kosovo) style work - though I didn't find another scent flask, found two cigar/cigarette holders on a Croatian auction site that appear to bear the same mark (though oddly, they describe one mark as a Vienna Diana-head mark, which is just incorrect):



https://www.aukcije.hr/prodaja/Antikviteti/Ostalo/291/oglas/ANTIKNI-FILIGRANSKI-CIGARŠPIC-BEČKO-SREBRO/3986229/

https://www.aukcije.hr/prodaja/Antikviteti/Ostalo/291/oglas/ANTIKNI-SREBRNI-FILIGRAN-CIGARŠPIC/3921694/

This thread on 925-1000 shows another piece, mentions Prizwen filigree, and shows another variant on the Yugoslavian rooster (full pic of mark is too unclear, but it almost looks like there might be a '6' at top): https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46492




Link to Prizwen filigree site, shown on the 925-1000 thread above: https://filigranpz.wixsite.com/filigran

And I see no spoon for snuff or cocaine, but as already said, a perfume dauber...

~Cheryl

 

Outstanding! Makes a whole lot more sense all round, and the examples shown both have what appears to be the same number '6' as mine. Am a little surprised, as the workmanship, while very fine, seems to hark back in style to the 19th century.

However, I know for a fact that glassworks here in Britain continued to use old-style Victorian moulds well into the 1930s, and indeed the Czechs are still producing glassware in the style of the early 1800s today. If there is a demand, people will continue to use the same designs.

So it now seems that my scent was made after 1933 in Prizren after all. Many thanks to all who tried to help!

 

Thanks to all for the welcome. I like this forum!