Antique Sword

Hello Folks,

I am attempting to learn the history of this sword. Specifically the era and country of origin. It is quite old judging from the patina and aging of the blade. The handle has a gold eagle. Cannot see any markings and I have looked the blade over. Thank You!!

Riley

 

Welcome!
You will have to wait for other to help you...but they will.

 

It is a fraternal sword. Telling what specific org. takes a while but hopefully the grip decoration will tell. No scabbard? It'll be hard to find that exact sword on the web, there are thousands of different ones and only many dozens pictured the entire internet, from what I've seen.

You may have to find this book, written by friends of mine, and look it up. http://www.amazon.com/American-Fraternal-Sword-Illustrated-Reference/dp/1931464383 You could buy the book, I think it is a bargain at the currently-reduced price of $35., but that's a good bit more than your sword is worth.

The little winged asterisk-in-circle may be the emblem of that fraternal org aka secret society. You might find it on the web.

 

To me just a sword made for decoration, that never came with a scabbard and nothing to do with any secret organisation.

 

The fat legged chicken looks like FOE to me

 

Sometimes the name of the sword maker is located at the exposed top of the blade (the Ricasso - unsharpened area), just below the guard (Quillon). Yours appears to have a short rain-guard just below the cross-guard that may be covering the maker's name. The spread eagle pommel doesn't appear to be a Masonic type pommel. To be perfectly honest, nothing on the hilt (pommel, grip, cross-guard, rain guard) speaks of a fraternal order at least to me. See below for info on IDing Fraternal order swords.

Most US military swords generally have some type of D-guard (helps protect the hand) rather than just a cross-guard. I tend to agree with Kristiaan for decorative purposes; however, possibly pics of both sides of the blade might give a clue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilt#/media/File:Sword_parts-en.svg
http://arms2armor.com/Swords/cavshilt.jpg

Fraternal swords:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Fra...oTCNuZnp2LjcgCFchcPgodWcMAUw&biw=1024&bih=591

--- Susan

Identifying Fraternal Order swords:
"Fraternal swords are most easily identified by the ornate, yet martially useless nature of their construction. Although this also describes many officer's swords, the nature of their decoration sets them apart. The pommels, hilts and scabbards are often exquisitely detailed with forms relating to their society, and the blades are often etched for most of their length. Common etched motifs include knights, middle-east scenes, Samson, and military displays. The blades are usually straight, always unsharpened, and are quite flexible"

"Some of the more common features of these swords include a cast, decorative pommel (often a knight's head), initials of some sort on the hilt and/or scabbard, the owner's name etched into the blade, and fraternal markings to identify which group the owner belongs to. The swords also are usually etched with the maker's name, often such well-known makers of military swords as Ames, Roby, Pettibone, and Emerson & Silver. While all these names are desirable in weapons, they do little to improve upon the value of these swords."

http://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/fraternal.html

 

Just saw Terry's posting. I did a hunt on FOE with no luck, but did find Modern Woodmen of America swords with similar pommels. The grips are similar, but the guards are different. They appear to have the same eagle with slightly different leaves under them on one side of the pommel and the same winged whatever on the other side. All I saw had etched blades. The OP (Original Poster) of this thread doesn't mention any etching on the blade. Here's an example:

Do click the thumbnails to see other views:
http://www.antiquefirearms.com/pages/819.htm

http://www.faganarms.com/products/modern-woodman-of-america-sword-fns836

I had no knowledge of the "Modern Woodmen of America." I thought it might be later version of the Woodmen of the World which was more or less a type of insurance company that men joined back when getting a stump/tree trunk for a grave stone. Anyways the following article in Wiki... says Modern Woodmen of America was founded in 1883 and is a "...fraternal benefit society..." Hmmmm... to me that sounds like an insurance thingy. Yep, it goes on to say...

"Modern Woodmen is a tax-exempt fraternal benefit society. The membership organization sells life insurance, annuity and investment products not to benefit stockholders but to improve the quality of life of its stakeholders – members, their families and their communities. They accomplish this through social, charitable and volunteer activities."

--- Susan

 

A sword with a generally "bow tie"-shaped cross guard is a quick way to identify many American swords as fraternal as opposed to military. There are probably exceptions to the rule, but a bow-tie-cross guard sword was almost certainly manufactured for sale as fraternal regalia. But a sword with a different style of cross-guard could also be a fraternal sword.

 

Here's the same one with "CDC" on the cross guard. I doubt it's Civil Defense Corps but it might help in identifying the OPs.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/12212971_fraternal-ceremonial-sword-civil-defense-corps

 

The logo in the center of the cross guard is the ancient Egyptian winged sun aka winged sun of Thebes, aka ... Since the "CDC" sword posted above has the same logo, it could be a "stock" feature of fraternal swords offered by one maker or another, as opposed to something unique to one particular organization. This raises the possibility that this maker sold OP's sword as their basic, no-options plain Jane fraternal sword, their least-expensive model, in which case we may never know what group used this sword.

 

Thank you everyone! I love the degree of investigation! I learned so much about swords in the 30 minutes I spent reading these posts and following the trail of links. Really appreciate it!

 

Some of the greatest investigative minds in the Galaxy frequent this forum.

Unhappily most are decades past their best.........................

 

Thank God I'm unique...

 

better than eunuch.....

 

Indeed!

 

Wow! There was indeed a serious degree of investigation.
But like I said, a pure fantasy sword made for decoration, nothing to do with any existing organisation, army or what so ever. Sorry.
There is a sword forum, one could ask there.

 

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, and there is no point in restating what those familiar with American Fraternal Swords have already stated. I would only suggest that those not familiar with that category of sword may benefit from a bit of research on the subject, as fraternal swords show up on this forum more frequently than any other category.

Agree that the question could be posted on most any sword-specific forum, we'd certainly welcome input from a group with more detailed corporate knowledge of the subject. I've recommended that when we couldn't ID something definitely here.

 

Of course one is entitled to his own opinion!
My post('s) might appear rude, but let's say that is due to the fact English isn't my mother tongue, and I didn't want to uppset anyone by participating in the debat!

 

The winged sun symbol on the cross guard is widely used in both Freemasonry and Rosecrucianism, so a great many fraternal organizations under one or the other would have felt comfortable having this symbol on their swords. Not sure we'll be able to narrow-down the original ownership of this sword much more precisely because the symbol was so widely-used but I'll look in some other places as I get time.

I have to dismiss the notion that it was originally made as a theatrical sword because there would be no reason to have the tiny symbols on it-they make for extra expense and a theater audience is too far away to see them anyway.

All this discussion and we haven't even seen the blade-it could be a fireplace poker for all we know.

 

Now I'm done looking at this item. I looked at each of some 600 photos of fraternal swords in the Marino book and found only one with the same image of the winged sun on a bow-tie-type cross guard. Caption on pp. 99 identifies the sword as having been made for the "Knights of the Golden Eagle." The cross guard is the only similarity to OP's sword however. Interestingly, the sword posted above marked "CDC" has much more in common with OP's sword than any in the book. The book has photos of a few "CDC"-marked swords which differ significantly from the one at the link above. The book states that CDC is an unidentified organization.

One thing in the book that I think may apply here is on pp. 15: "The 1870's and 80's was an era of stock swords at cut-rate prices, though there were always swords of presentation quality available for the higher ranks."

I think OP's sword may be one of the "stock" swords mentioned.