German Silver Marks Berlin date please?

Hi all,
I am trying to date some antique silver with a Berlin hallmark.
From what I can see the standing bear has the letter M then additional assayer mark M (year?).
The third stamp in the middle is what looks like a crest and an F, possibly Furth?
Thank you for looking.
Tom

 

Hi Tom. We need pictures, well focused closeups of the marks themselves and an overall picture of the item the marks are on.

 

Thank you - I have taken a better picture of the hallmarks

 

Hm. That mark in the center looks more like a worn letter in Gothic font - an E? a G? a C? than any kind of "crest."

But what concerns me more is the lack of a "lot" number representing the fineness under the lot system of measurement. If 2 assayers marked these they should have determined the fineness of the silver alloy and marked appropriately.

(FYI - the second assayer letter, assuming that's what the M is, does not give you a year.)

Where did you get these?

 

Bought at a UK auction sale room. Thank you for the information on lot numbers. I understood that this number would have only appeared after 1886

 

Actually the lot number would only appear BEFORE 1886, not after.

 

that looks Schwäbisch-Gmünd assay mark to me. not Berlin.

 

Thank you for the replies. Completely conflicting information than from the seller. The Standing Bear with no numbers is coming up on this website as pre 1886 https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_b1884.html

 

I believe you (and or the seller) have mis-read the information on that page. The heading clearly indicates that the fineness of the alloy will be represented in the "lot" system and that the marks are pre-1886. The intent of the examples is to show the various city marks and not to show what the lot marks look like.

 

The first mark is the Berlin bear with 'M' warden's mark, the center 'E' is the secondary assayer's mark, the third 'M' mark is most likely the maker's - the marks would date mid to late 1860s and it wouldn't be unusual to not have a lothige mark (fineness most likely 12 loth/.750). Below are similar marks from a piece by a different maker...



~Cheryl

 

http://silber.info/
have a look and compare. you have the items in hand. although Schwäbisch-Gmünd is a unicorn it still comes nearer to your mark than the Berlin one.

 

Thank you all - I am leaning towards the Berlin Mark. I very much appreciate the images Cheryl and link Fid- certainly matching in my eye especially the Gothic E .

 

There's really no question, it is the Berlin bear mark, which like almost all marks, had many variants. Though it could be a bit earlier, the Fiddle Thread style pattern was typically 19th century (other than in France), with those added decorative little scrolls it's pretty firmly into the 1800s - the Schwäbisch Gmünd unicorn-rampant was a 17th-18th century mark, a unicorn head was used in the 19th. Below are more images of similar marks from a site devoted to researching German marks...

Some variants of Berlin marks like yours - and some bit earlier and later marks with the Blackletter (Gothic Script) 'D' and 'F' secondary assay marks:



















~Cheryl

 

Concerning Schwäbisch Gmünd marks - from Rosenberg's 'Der Goldschmiede Merkzeichen, Vol. 2, Deutschland, D-M' (1923), showing some variants and noting the 19th century change in marks (also noted in Tardy):




~Cheryl

 

Examples of Berlin marks from Rosenberg's 'Der Goldschmiede Merkzeichen, Vol. 1, Deutschland, A-C' (1922):





~Cheryl