Featured Help dating Pennsylvania Dutch/Norwiegan painted blanket chest

Ok, we are making progress. I did already try to explain why the screws do not look perfect and brand new to you, when I wrote the above in my first post:

The truth is that the picture you are looking at is of poor quality, and appears to have paint residue on the hinge and screws. That is even more obvious in your blowups of the screws which look like fuzzy blobs taken at an angle. Sometimes it is best to wait for better pics before committing to what you are seeing.

What we CAN see in these pics, however, is that the hinge itself is not a hand-forged iron hinge like I showed on my piece. And we can see that the box itself is not made or decorated in the way a 19th century or earlier box would be made or decorated. The lesson is to look at the big picture of the object as a whole, and not to get stuck on one detail (especially when the pic of that detail is hard to make out).

 

(Changed my mind...carry on)

 

biting of the tongue , perhaps..........

 

We do?
Lesson? For me? I gave you a lesson to, about the (not) usage of antique screws on modern objects, which is alsof part of the "big picture". We all could and can learn!
And where did i gave a 100% sureon the chest dating?? At most on the screws, as i still am convinced these are antique handmade. A significant detail to overthink.

But thanks for (again) the conformation about what you see. Although it alrwady was more then clear to me.
Everyone can choose for itself what he sees or not sees (speculative paint???).
So luckily the need for me to react/defend is totally gone. I was clear about what i see (if not, not my prob. Read back again then).
Everyone still can look what he sees for himself.

Everyone mind. I just gave a detail i see, and clearly not only I. It was not my attention at all to get involved in such (indeed) "silly" discussion. I would rather choose to communicate normal about it, but it's clear that's not up to me alone. Ican live with it, that it is what it is.

As i said i already was out of this discussion. Sadly my parents learned me the decency to react when spoken to. But i'm out, if i'm not spoken to anymore (what would be my interest to 'fight' if this chest is 500 or 5 years old? Was just trying to help. That's what forums are about, ain't they??)
Am i out now? Leave me out now?

 

Ohw, one last thing. My vision on discussion.
Discussions indeed can be learnfull. If everyone(!) involved would be open for arguments (without becomming personal. By personal reasons, or what's happening here??)

You (and more) only declined my argument from the beginning, without any doubt! Even with speculations to get your 'right'. Where you also could have asked yourself "indeed, oval screws, strange!? How can we place that?". Where you also could have asked me "Why do you see that?" instead of comming with that silly and totally wrong "view angle".

I at other hand i haven't declined any other arguments (read back and you'll see). They even are questionable doubts for me to to be discussed, and there i could easily speculate it could be later repairs (but i didn't, yet) if we would have discussed in a normale way. For me all arguments (still) are open for a learnfull discussion (for everyone), which sadly hasn't happen.

And I regret that I let myself be dragged into this battle out of personal feelings (?? Or what is it?).

 

Oh my days.

 

SMH

 

Me too.

Jeff, your beatitude for patience must surely be incoming.

 

Hi Everyone - I have just returned from my sisters with more photos of the trunk. After VERY careful and extensive examination we feel that it really is an enigma! To give you some context: my sister IS an advanced metal worker - albiet jewelry...and has made many hinges. I post exhibit A as an example of some of her work. The top piece is a hammered copper vessel, the cube and the sphere are made of sheet copper, cut and welded and the locket is sterling and brass with a bezel mount turquoise. And YES, she did fabricate the hinge! It is her opinion that the hinges on the chest are old and handmade.


We noticed damage to the wood; both on the inside and outside of this piece and feel that for some reason they had to "reset the hinge" on the chest. The hinges are not very uniform and my sister felt quite certainly that each one was made individually by hand. It looks as if this particular hinge had become loosened from the base of the chest and remounted - hence the 3 screws on the bottom of this hinge are set very "wonky"; perhaps in an effort to grab some solid wood. All the screws appear to be FLAT - HEAD ROUND SCREWS. You can note some wood damage along the back wall of the chest here. Below is a close up of the same hinge.




This photo is of Hinge B (the one in the middle of the chest). It is tidier, but you can see the joins of each of the knuckles and they aren't exacting.

This was the only image I was able to get of any saw marks. The bottom of the chest is made in two widths. We think the "polka dots" were just made by something that left an impression on the finish. But you can see the rhythmic "more or less" horizontal marks that would appear to be saw marks. I don't know what the saw marks indicate...but hopefully someone can "read" that clue.


When we examined the ball (bun) feet we were surprised to find a central "knot" in each of the feet and they were VERY WELL WORN! This is example A.


Foot B was different than all the rest in terms of it looked slightly smaller and much less worn - perhaps a replacement?




This is a side view - looking across the bottom of the piece.


This is the close up of the decoration detail on the top edge

 

Grrr! I encountered a glitch so I'm posting this:
I have a few more photos to post - but apparently I don't know how so it will have to be a separate post. Anyway: In truly examining the construction and paintings. Both my sister and I are in agreement that at some point this piece had damage and was repaired and updated.

We think the far right hinge had pulled away and was repaired. To aid with stability of the lid and perhaps because the lid was a finger smasher; the slow close hinges were added... fairly recently. Because of the damage or perhaps because it was originally too "gaudy", someone "antiqued" it.

In the photo I hope to add in a separate post... it appears that some one roughly painted around all the flowers with a heavier paint and weren't very tidy about it. It has a texture. Then it was "antiqued" with that light coat of black antiquing... to sort of tone it all down. You can see in the photo that there is chipping of the antiquing to reveal much brighter colors. There is evidence of original gold paint around the flowers and leaves and the trim. The upper photo of the detail decoration - clearly was painted by someone who had a "light hand"... and the centers of some of the flowers also have that light feathery detail. The "updated" work is much heavier, clunkier, sloppier and has texture. Why it was done - is unknown. Our opinion is that it IS an "older" piece - but not that old. Perhaps no older than late 1800 and no newer than 1910 or so. Then for whatever reason, the repairs and updates were done. She loves it the way it is and only spent $80 on it so she's a happy camper.

My personal opinion is that the large black field was also added with the updating - she doesn't think so. But... no matter either way.

So, I hope this will resolve some of the issues about this interesting piece.

No, you really cannot see the corner construction. It is all under thick paint. It appears that they are side to side connections; not dovetailed or beveled. And there is a fitted angled piece that runs down each inside corner.

The bun feet look original to the piece as there is no wear to the lengths that are applied to the underside (4 screws on each piece - screwed in from the inside of the chest).

Perhaps this will remain a piece for which there are no definitive answers... and as I said: she loves the piece - either way! We thank you ALL for your comments; observations and opinions!

Cheerio Leslie

 

Ok... here are a few more photos.
In this one, you can see the lighter, brighter, original lime green paint, and the gold trim around the leaves and flowers, which look brown, under the antiquing. I feel that this black "field" was added in addition to the antiquing... as they didn't seem to follow the edges of the gold well.


Inside corner construction... well covered by paint. Visible screw is one holding the board that the bun feet are attached to.


Corner close up


This is the back/outside of hinge 3 that seems to have been repaired. You can see some irregularity to the wood like it was cracked... it is quite a ridge when you feel it.


Close up of the gold trim... still pretty bright on the very outside frame of the lid


Lots of chipping of the "antiquing" in this pic also.


Ok... that is the last of my photos.
Thank you all again...
Cheerio for now! Leslie

 

good job Leslie !!!!!!!!!!

 

And again clearly to see that the slots of the screws are completely off center (so NO machinemade head round screws), and no screw is the same as another. Slot especially good to see at the left screw.
So clearly handmade screws. One must be blind to not see this (or too stubborn?).



Doesn't date the chest for sure. But for sure there are details seriously older then the "for sure 1970 serial production", which is highly unlikely on a modern box and makes 1970 serial production doubtable. If not, please explane?
But who cares. It's already clear to me no one will ever admit it now and I've already given up on this silly discussion.
The only one who understood my point, @wlwhittier was also already "outta here"

And i'm yet only reacting to help @Northern Lights Lodge dating this beautifull chest. Don't hang me for that.

 

Northern lights has new good information , presented in a clear and factual way....so that we can consider what is said about the box....

You already wrote that ...
"If one has questions or doubts he can ask friendly and i will answer decent..."

but now you take new information.....and make personal comments that have nothing to do with the box........

" One must be blind to not see this or too stubborn?)."
&
"But who cares. No one will admit it now. Silly discussion."

I do not understand ???

You commented on the screws....that's fine ...& reasonable...
but there is no further need to antagonize anyone here for their opinions...

You want .... ' ask friendly ...& decent answer '.......

Then you must be friendly also..!

 

I will. I already am, to people who reaction decent to me (see other topics).

That goes for everyone else, doesn't it?? Mind that my reaction about / attention on the screws was decent from the beginning. The reactions on me about those screws weren't!! A good attentional point was without any questions totally ignored by making it 'silly', only by some 'personal thoughts', not by facts. And i was only doing a 'silly' discussion. Don't hang me for a RE-action on an action.
If i'm not decent to people who ARE decent, please point me at it where it happened, and i'll correct it! (i think untill now nowhere)

That reaction was on all the unfriendly reactions i've got so far in this 'silly' discussion! My vision and defending it was named 'silly' remember??
You react friendly to people who tried to hang you before?? Who make your (as it turns out now) good vision named 'silly' on and on as if i was some discussing fool? Be honest @komokwa Would you or anyone else be happy with that and accept that without any defence??
Again! Please don't hang me for only defending my honor before.
Yes, you react decent to me. I react decent and explaining to you too (am i not?). But i hope everyone understands my position. It wasn't me acting unpleasant.

New information?? That's exactly my point Old hardware was clear to me from the start. Nothing new now (if one would wanted to know).
Ask @Northern Lights Lodge if you dont believe me! I've pm'd her this Dec 28, 2022 ...

And i'm happy @Northern Lights Lodge searched more and and was not satisfied with "1970 serial production".

At the end. It would be decent if others who were tough enough to hang me with unpleasant reactions as if i was some discussing fool, now would be tough enough to admit their wrong. Or at least stay of my back from now.
And for my part of 'undecenty' ... i guess were all far even now. I have now made up my backlog.

Now i said what i had to say, and sit back to see what will happen (i expect no touch recognition will follow but we'll see).
And i move on being nice to everyone who's nice to me to

And @komokwa ... thank you for your clear decent honest reaction. I appriciate that, and wished everyone was like that.

 

Oh man, I can't believe we are still talking about this chest one month after you first posted it. Nice that you added more pics, but I have to say the pics you took of the hinges are STILL off-center and at an angle!!! I do not see anything in your new pictures to preclude a modern machine made hinge and screws because they are STILL off-center and STILL covered with multiple layers of paint!!

If you aren't sick of this discussion yet (like the rest of us are) and you want to put this discussion about the hardware to bed, then unscrew one of the hinges and take pictures of the rear of the hinge without paint on it. Then show the screws removed from the hinge from ABOVE (not an angle) to show the whole heads. Then show the screws from the side. Pretty clearly that is the only way to stop this petty back and forth.

I don't see much in the pics you added to support the idea that this is as old as 1910, but I haven't seen the chest in person like you have, I have only seen the pictures you supplied. Is it possible it is as old as 1910 or maybe even a few years earlier, sure, but as I said a couple times, it doesn't really interest me when and where it was made in the 20th century. I still think all suggestions that WERE made - 70's Austria (@Any Jewelry ) or more recent India/Asia (@evelyb30 ) are still very much in the running. Hand-painted, sure, but that could be the case with either of those suggestions. Overpainting and brown over-varnish is intro to fake furniture painting 101. Your saw cuts are circular, the hardware (in my opinion) modern and NOT hand-made, and the wear to the feet could be either fakery or a good pull across a concrete basement.

Finally, @Woutinc , you really need to get over this. I know English is not your first language, so I've tried to be very patient. But it is really in your best interests to tone it down. I never got personal with you or made a personal attack. And go back and read this thread - I never called you silly. I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to @wlwhittier ! And I said it was a silly conversation about oval screws, which, I'm sorry to say IT STILL IS!!

 

During the period I know of from experience, traditional furniture makers in the Alpine regions used both ready made and hand made hinges. The latter for an 'artisan' look to go with the country style handpainting. Something that was also done in my neck of the woods for some country style furniture. So hand made as such does not determine the age.
Whether these are machine made or (1970s-ish?) hand made is difficult for me to see in the photos. Besides, unlike Brad and Jeff, I am no expert on hinges.

Thank you for establishing that, it gives a clearer picture.

It doesn't look a later addition to me. If you look closely at the gold painted lines, they are actually on top of the black, leaving thin black lines in between the gold lines and the leaves and petals here and there. The heavy 'antiquing' interferes with the clarity of the painting, but I think you can see it in this photo which you posted above:



All in all it is a nice chest, and your sister got a bargain.
And that is all I am going to say about it.

 

Oh my goodness! Thank you all again! I think it is time to bring this discussion to a peaceful end. I TRULY appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments.

It seems without stripping the thing or removing and cleaning a hinge; that we will continue to have dissenting opinions.

I honestly believe that the discussion taught, me especially, what is important to look for in an older item. Not being a furniture expert... lol... it is a learning curve!

I guess in the end; for my sister, it matters little what it's past life was. As I said before, she loves the piece!

Both of us appreciate the time and effort ya'll took to respond.

Very sincerely,
Cheerio,
Leslie

 

The chest is still not dated yet for sure. There are serious doubts untill now while no one can refute it properly, even ignore it completely.

I can't believe it either. But i said what i had to say in my previous reaction. If one doesn't want to see it .... i finished.
I go on with...

As espected, to sadly.

@Northern Lights Lodge Good luck determinating this chest (and dating it). Hope for you it turns out more well then expected.

Now first going to let my ignore list grow.