School of Rubens Road to Calvary Need help with Age...

Wow that's great and hope it's very old and no matter, please let us know!
Who does that sort of paint testing, please?

 

Rather than incur the costs of scientific analysis, why not send high quality photos to the Old Masters departments of several top auction houses for their opinions? I could be wrong but I’m not seeing any of the “same techniques and values of the original”.

 

AC Art Care Conservation in Los Angeles

 

I have as I am connected to many of the largest auction houses, and the old masters departments do have some insight, but as most of the art we knew to be after masters, we have yet to determine the subject matter and more precise age. This community here has been highly effective and I am grateful for all the insight that helps me put the pieces together before they go to those same auction houses.

Remember the last thing I wish to happen is sell a piece of art for say20k and then learn that I did not do my due diligence enough and find it re-sell with knowledge for 10 times that, perfect example is the sale of the Salvador Mundi, sold for pennies in comparison to the first auction sale of 150 mill then the second almost immediate auction sale of 1/2 a billion dollars. The original seller has got to be quite upset by this.

 

Well, surprise me... but I don't think that's an issue with the pieces you have shown to date.

 

Agreed.

Yes.

@Shadowwolf1117 , as an artist, I try to give positive advice to buyers who are not artists. Next time, check the hands. If you will compare the painted hands on yours with the painted hands on the original, I believe you will see that this is by no means of the school of Rubens, but a later copy. EDIT: And I know you know it's a later copy, but I feel you think it's much older than it is.

As the back has supposedly been relined with fabric, it should not be wrinkled on the top corner, best to take it out of the frame and carefully tighten it. Old paint can fall off of wrinkled areas quickly. If it is so stiff that you feel uncomfortable to flatten it, that would be a good sign. Plus taking it apart will show you the relining. We all want to see it too!

There was a member who maybe had a real piece of art history, but the bottom line was: none of us could tell him for sure yes or no. In your case, I can say your artist was far more than a Sunday hobbyist, but much less than a master painter. How much will it cost to have paint analyzed? Will you have the paint from the back analyzed at the same time?

I believe this to be mid-1800s or later. Perhaps the frame is handcut woodworking. Not sure, it's too hard to see. Please let us know what you find out.

 

It's not really 'school of', which would imply an original period work in the style of the target artist. This is clearly 'after' (a copy of) the Rubens original. How far after? Well, the little tag, which also seems to have some age, says it was in the Royal Museum at Brussels, where it still is. This museum was founded by Napoleon in 1801 and opened in 1803, so it's no earlier than that. Looking at the brushwork of your copy, I find it to be very slick & facile compared to the care & detail of the original - or the workmanship that Rubens would have insisted upon from his apprentices if the copy had been made in his workshop. I believe this was speedily done by a skilled Victorian-era workman for sale to the tourist market of the day, which would have been generally wealthy Britons & Europeans on the Grand Tour, happy to have a decent copy of an Old Master to hang in their portrait galleries.

When you know a piece is a copy of an old master, you don't really have much risk of a great loss. It's unknown pieces of early Renaissance age you want to watch out for, and of course the few fake Pollocks that are actually real....

 

I forgot to add, please look at the little cupid's 3 fingers. Rubens's has 4 fingers.
Look at the woman blotting Jesus's head with a cloth in her left hand. The hand is pretty abnormal. When possible, I always suggest art buyers look at the hands first.

The fact that I can so easily read the message note on the back, makes me believe that note was written in the 20th century because cursive handwriting was much different in the 1800s.

Re-lining / re-stretching an old painting should not have left those wrinkles / warps in the face of the painting. Can you see any warps in the back?

 

You seem to actively be doing your due diligence.....but stop worrying about what the paintings eventually sell for.....and worse, should a reseller get even more down the road.
You'll just make yourself crazy !

Once you put these up for auction, you have no control over whether 2 guys duke it out for any one item.....or even if the lot gets passed !

You could , offer these on your own....starting at $100,000 each , and if they don't sell , reduce the price by 5000 dollars every month until one sells.....and then continue the process until they are all sold.

In that way the market will dictate what the current fair market value ...in the current buying climate is.

& if by chance any of the works sell in the future for more that you got paid.....
don't loose your shit.....and get on with your happy life !!!

There's nothing that you can do about that.....

 

You guys are all amazing with your insight and support, I agree with what you all have written and will most certainly take all this advice moving forward I will also keep you apprised of all progress on the pieces as we learn more Thank you!

 

it's always nice to see an interesting collection ...... that gets our juices flowing !!

Check back , anytime........& best of luck on your quest !

 

The work was acquired by the Brussels museum in 1815. I would think that your earliest date. And to my eye, quite a bit later.

Debora

 

I'm in agreement upon scrutiny putting it around 1850's-60's

 

I'm not even going to ask how you arrived at a 10-year window.

Debora

 

So you agree that something painted two centuries after the death of the artist cannot be referred to as “school of”?

 

Yes I am in agreement of amending my initial assessment as more credible evidence has been presented to me

 

That scripted label has no record past 1860 that I could find, I found plenty in previous years, hence my assumptive conclusion of 1850-60ish either way when I list it for sale it will simply echo circa late 19th century

 

"That scripted label has no record past 1860..." I have no idea what that means.

Debora

 

I do believe that is the period this was painted.
Additionally, the note on the back may have been contrived.

 

The note on the back was from the auction house to help with the sale