Spanish Caravaggist (?)

He ate his homework too, honest.

 

St. John's wart? Sorry wrong thread.

 

Think we can be sure this one is John:



This one too:



Seeing this as Caravaggio may be wishful thinking, but it is certainly John:

https://www.wikiart.org/en/caravaggio/john-the-baptist-reclining-baptist-1610



I was beginning to wonder whether this one was John after all, until I noticed that there does seem to be a crosspiece on the staff:





This one, however, despite similarities with the one above, just can't see this full monty presentation of a joyous youth on intimate terms with what may well be a goat as any sort of saint:

Not at all. It is not unheard of for scholars/museum curators to reconsider a work & come to new conclusions that depart from what had been received wisdom. And there is good reason to reconsider the nude boy hugging the ram/goat, see what it says for itself.

 

The staff/cross that looks like bamboo in the one Caravaggio, the one I was ready to discount as John, is really rather strange & not consistent with the usual convention of giving him something sturdy enough to help in all his traveling around over trackless ground. Something reed-like would never hold up under the wear, good only for carrying around, something like a thyrsus for Dionysus. On the other hand, you could use something switch-like for managing sheep &, as you point out, we do not know how the upper end of our sleeper's rod looks. The pedum in depictions of shepherds & other rustics in classical art looks more like a hockey stick than a crook.

 

Yes, but that work is also attributed to Juan Bautista Maino. (SIDEBAR: I could be wrong, but I don't think the Caravaggio-foundation web site is more than a reprint seller.)

In art, John the Baptist is commonly pictured with a reed cross. That's not specific to Caravaggio. Often a long skinny reed cross -- that would be of little to no value as a walking/shepherding staff.

 

That one is certainly very different & would not be at all surprised to find the attribution to Caravaggio is incorrect.

Scouting around, I see some crosses that have the joints of a reed on the shaft, but many that look like sticks/slender straight branches with the scars where smaller twigs have been removed. Think this is a good comparison:

'Another common attribute is a cross held like a military standard' from this site:
http://www.christianiconography.info/johnBaptist.html

I'm not seeing any example in which he holds it up off the ground & he is often posed leaning on it. Reeds would make a good connection with the River Jordan, but, unlike the wearing of a camel skin, the cross & lamb are artistic conventions with no Biblical foundation; the choice of material was up to the artist.

 

I seem to have lost the thread here ... why is holding "it up off the ground" something you were looking for?

 

If the cross were light in weight & too flimsy to lean on, as a couple of reeds lashed together would be, you would expect sometimes to see him carrying it the way a cross might be carried in a procession, but it is routinely referred to as his staff & often seems to serve him that way, not only as a symbolic accoutrement. I'm just trying to figure out if there is anything essential about its being made of one thing or another. Seems not.

 

I feel like I'm missing a point...

 

I do a lot of pointless things.

Trying to get an idea of whether the reedy appearance of the staff in the sleeper's hand, which we agree may not end in a cross on top, necessarily links the figure to John the Baptist or is just as likely to be a pastoral touch, like reed pipes. There does not seem to be any religious significance, or none I have found so far. Suspect the main virtue artistically is that reeds grow pretty straight.

 

Oh yeah, I totally lost the plot on that go around.

But I'm back now. I think reed can be seen as a clue, but on it its own neither confirms or denies. Now, instead of looking at JB paintings, I'm going to go look at shepherd paintings.

 

According to the gospel accounts regarding John the Baptist and Jesus, some people questioned the character of John the Baptist. Jesus replied that John was not a reed shaken by the wind, but a man of strong character. Not the exact wording, but that is what it boils down to, and the comparison with a reed shaken by the wind was made. Remember, much of this occured on the banks of the river Jordan, where John baptised people. The Jordan has areas with reeds.

 

Thought I remembered there was a reed metaphor somewhere, maybe someone not being a hollow reed. But my point is that John is not specifically described as carrying a cross made of reeds. It may have become an allusive artistic convention for portraying him that, like all the others, was sometimes employed, sometimes not. I'm with Jivvy:

The question that interests me is whether or not the presence in OP's painting of something that could be a reed is sufficient to make an ID of J the B.

 

Saintly "attributes" do vary over time and place.

As to whether a reed "staff" makes sense for anyone who isn't John the Baptist, I don't really know... but then again, I'm betting many painters didn't either.

 

It occurred to me that David was a shepherd. Looking for a painting of a sleeping David yielded nothing, but a site that summarizes his story, says, when he sets of after Goliath:

David took with him only his staff, five smooth stones, his shepherd's bag, and a sling.

So, If a Biblical shepherd with a staff is needed, here's one candidate.

Oh, and speaking of Goliath, David says:

"Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?"