Featured American National Treasure... Or?

The Jefferson piece is actually transfer printed cobalt underglaze. An almost identical boarder is found here -

http://www.englishporcelainonline.com/upload/c16c0bf564dfbcdcab1a6168ba52db94_d.jpg

"The saucer is transfer printed in underglaze cobalt blue, with the uncommon Nankin willow pattern."

http://www.englishporcelainonline.com/english_porcelain_items.php?cat=Caughley

 

Ok, I just don't understand why we argue. The Chinese did not use transfers but only during the first few decades of 20th C. That is a fact.
If the Jefferson plate was made in China there is absolutely no way of printing technique to have been used.

The almost identical border (British copied Chinese styles as you know) was made in England. Transferware was made there back in the 18th C. but the porcelain was soft paste. Japanese started using transfers a bit later.

 

The link to the "Jefferson" porcelain is interesting but not much more than speculation from someone about their own collection as nearly as I can tell. Jefferson owned Monticello and another property called Poplar Forest. They both have extensive and ever expanding archaeological ceramic collections.

Hope we're just sharing information and ideas, I'm not meaning to argue.

 

kardinalisimo,

No arguing but maybe a little lively debate can be informative. If anything it makes me research more so that's a plus! Thank you for the information you've provided. Sorry if it came across argumentative. Although that still leaves me in the dark about the origin of this piece. It definitely has age by the glaze, enamel design and foot rim but I just cant imagine the function of a piece like this outside of some government building? And its not as finely done piece that someone would expect from a post 1850's piece. Its not really something someone keeps on a stand in their hallway so I am still at square one here.

say it slowly,

That's very interesting, are the recovered pieces American in origin? Do you have a link maybe to some of the recovered pieces?

 

By the way, where did you see transfer in your pieces? Seem all hand painted. What's with pre and post 1850 and the relation to the quality?

 

The piece is hand enamelled however all the border designs on the rim and foot as well as all the flowers & Great Seal are all (red) line transfer designs that have been filled in. There are lines where you can see the pattern is misaligned when it meets up with opposite side.

Im just using 1850 as a reference period in which the Western porcelain industry was producing higher quality wares.

 

Sorry I should be more clear about my concept of 1850 which seems obscure. I feel if the piece is post 1850 and had some historical significance or was made for some government office or commissioned for something (again leading back to its original reason for creation?), it would be of a much higher quality and craftsmanship than it is with a higher attention to detail (aligned patterns, perfect enamelling etc.) however it seems slightly crude which is why I am finding it difficult to date. Does that make more sense? Sorry if its confusing I didn't mean to make a specific point on it just a generalization to help pin point a date.

 

Links for Monticello specific to the collections I'm not sure of the exact best way to reach that if it's online at all. Monticello has been involved with DAACS which is gathering artifact information from various sites in order to compare for research purposes. Here is a link to a some of the galleries and other information. I was fortunate enough to work in a small way on the South Grove Midden at Mount Vernon collection and can tell you that there are many thousands of artifacts that are never photographed.

http://www.daacs.org/research/galleries/

I don't have the time at the moment to look for better photos specific to Jefferson but I have personal photos of some from Monticello and Poplar Forest on my other computer.

When I have a bit of time I'll pull some books on Chinese Porcelain. I won't comment beyond suggesting to look for signs of wear and mention that there have been many many decorative items produced in the historic style.

My subscription to the discussion board at Gotheborg has expired but maybe I'll re-up for another year. I don't know a better place to discuss Chinese porcelain.

 

Just thought I'd add my two cent...

What I see is a typical (and rather beautiful) hand painted, enameled and gilt 18th/early-19th C. Chinese export famille rose punch bowl made for the American market.

https://www.google.com/search?q=chi...tbm=isch&q=chinese+export+american+eagle+bowl

 

Nuff, take a closer look at the borders decoration. You can see some overlapping and some of the lines are broken, which would point to transfer. Maybe the OP can upload a closeup pics of the suspicious areas.