Featured Chinese Rank Badge - Bid without examination?

I usually don't buy Chinese Silk embroidery (not that I have a lot) without looking and feeling it to determine if it is real after buying some reproductions. The seller in this case doesn't know what they have as it is a Golden Pheasant. The presentation is also poor. It will probably leave me behind when the bidding starts, but I would appreciate your comments - good or bad.

The sellers narrative is: "China, 19th C., silk embroidery badges, embroidered details in pastel colors depicting scene of a yellow dragon flying amid clouds and waves, presented in plain wooden frame. Width 11 in., Length 10 in."


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/69102066_chinese-silk-embroidery-framed-badges

 

It does already have 1 bid, despite almost 8 days ahead of auction. Is that you? If not, you are right that others also see it as convincing enough to take the chance.

 

That's me. Little to pay if it is real. What I am trying to determine if it is worth going higher.

 

Just for the education of the many of us who are not versed in the arcana of Chinese rank badges, what does this one signify?

 

Second rank - Civil Service. Pretty high up. This would be on the back. The front pieces are divided.

1st Rank Crane Recognized by a red cap on head
2nd Rank Golden Pheasant Recognized by two tail feathers
3rd Rank Peacock Recognized by elaborate tail feathers
4th Rank Wild Goose Recognized by black marks like comas
5th Rank Silver Pheasant Recognized by five tail feathers
6th Rank Egret Legs appear in variety of colors
7th Rank Mandarin Duck Recognized by blue tail
8th Rank Quail Recognized by dumpy shape and scales
9th Rank Paradise Flycatcher Recognized by two long tail feathers with single circle in each

 

I've read that a lot of fakes and reproductions are well enough done that it takes an expert to know the difference. Without provenance, you should probably assume it isn't original and hope for the best after the fact.

According to this site, the badge shown would have been a woman's... the wife of an official.

http://journalofantiques.com/features/chinese-rank-badges/

I would guess that if the quality of the workmanship is dubious, that works against it being original. The higher ranks could afford the higher quality.

 

Yes. You're right. The woman's sun is on the right. Thank you.

 

IMO it looks very simple - limited colors, and no metallic threads, which I would expect on a high ranking badge. Below are some documented Qing examples for comparison:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/..._servant,_Qing_Dynasty,_Denver_Art_Museum.jpg


https://durhamweaver64.blogspot.com/2017/04/dressing-to-impress-chinese-formal-and.html

 

Ah there's the rub. The fancy ones go for $1,000 plus. I've seen them sell for $4,900

 

FYI, this item seemed to have been auctioned on same site in 2017 with an opening bid $400. The lot was passed with 5 watching. Seems to me the owner might know what they have, but playing dumb hoping to get a bite. Just an opinion. I am clueless on this type of object, please keep that in mind.


[Edit] Same seller: Norwood Gallery, Mass.

 

@mmarco102 Thank you so much for this. They set the price low and then when it doesn't meet the reserve price, blam the lot passes. Okay, I'll just let this go. Kiko

 

Since the placement of the sun supposedly establishes it as a wife's badge. perhaps more modest work is to be expected? I'm just making this up, but still...

 

Thank you That's a good point -since hers was to sit by his side and "mirror" him. I look for bargains, when someone doesn't know what they have. At $400 it's no bargain.

 

@KikoBlueEyes, I sometimes hate to give my thoughts, thinking you could miss out on a great deal.

 

Please, please do not be concerned. You saved me from wasting my time. I bid $80 and that's not going to cut it with a reserve over $400. Sometimes one slips through and that's the one I want.

 

I imagine the fancy ones are more likely to be genuine.
"Before going any further I must warn new collectors of mandarin rank badges to beware of newly manufactured badges. The “antique” stores of mainland China, Hong Kong, Singapore, as well as some stores in the USA and London are filled with brand new badges being sold as very old. Some dealers go so far as to advertise their badges are Ming. It is fairly safe to say that 95% of badges currently being offered for sale on eBay are brand new, no matter what the sellers might claim. And frequently the copies are quite marvelous and can fool all, but the most expert, long-time collector."
http://journalofantiques.com/features/chinese-rank-badges/

 

Yeah, although i have NO CLUE about this kind of object, I'd RUN from this one. it's been up for sale 5 times since 2016, 4 times it was passed & once sold for $475 in 2017.
This will be the 6th sale of same object since 2016, a bad sign, guesses the person who paid $475 in 2017 realizes they made a mistake and now trying to get someone else to make the same mistake.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/sea... Framed Badges&sort=-relevance&status=archive

 

James. Thank you so much for this information and for taking the time to track it down. I have been collecting for 20+ years and have never bought at an on line auction before. After some early bad choices, I learned what to look for from a major collector who showed me how to examine a piece and determine if it is genuine. (He had a cold storage vault with thousands of pieces.) Unfortunately, my knowledge is predicated on having the piece in my hand. Over the years, I have examined hundreds of pieces and have purchased 12 genuine pieces. Two of which I had authenticated by Chinese textile experts. The collector who taught me is long gone, so I have to rely upon you all to help me. Thanks again Kiko.

 

2manybooks. During the 2000 years, Chinese civil servants numbered in the 100,000 range. That's 200,000 objects, since they wore one on front and one on the back. Lets say 25% have a badge for their wives, that's another 50,000. Assuming that they may have summer and winter wear - you see where this is going. Since my first Dragon robe exhibit, I have seen a number of major exhibits. Not all the work is "wedding" quality, especially the emperor's lighter summer robes. What you see in books and exhibits are the best, but I have found the range to be quite varied. Kiko

 

Bid without examination?

Generally speaking on furniture, no i don't but, i break that rule all the time as it's a complicated subject. If someone i know who is attending auction & also knows early furniture i will bid after getting a report, if provenance is impeccable i sometimes do, if auction house is well known for honesty & will take an object back if and ONLY IF, object is not what subject claims it is. i.e. they won't for condition issues for example because that is very subjective & differs from one person to the next.
As an example, last week the Spitler chest, subject line said
Rare and Important Johannes Spitler Painted Shenandoah Valley Blanket Chest
In addition, auction house had already consulted with Museum of the Shenandoah Valley & Williamsburg so auction house had looked into object as well as one could. Still, after all that if chest turned out to NOT be a Spitler chest, they would take it back, refund money, no harm no foul except for time lost.
Also, unless a dealer i know well, i NEVER pay with a check, ALWAYS pay with a credit/debit card because you can make a chargeback claim & bank must honor that if you can prove object isn't what seller said it was. Bank will auto refund your money & let you & seller fight it out with bank not involved. And, if the money is back in your pocket.... Possession is 9/10s of the law! Let the seller sue! Make My Day!!!