Update on my blue and white vase

I believe I ID'd this vase. I began a new thread because I couldn't seem to effectively reply on the previous thread I started a few weeks ago. Anyway, for those who are interested there is a vase (jar) like mine in the Wikipedia site about blue and white pottery. Basically, Wikipedia's history of blue and white pottery. You will find one like mine there. It appears to be from Ming dynasty during Wanli's reign (1573-1620). There is also a blurb about Islamic influence around that time period. Note the Islamic "characters" just below yje rim on my jar. My piece was likely made for the Dutch market.

 

Here is the link to your discussion.

https://www.antiquers.com/threads/pottery-vase-i-d.74104/

I should be very surprised if yours was anywhere near as old as you mention. Also your appears to be pottery not porcelain.

Perhaps you can link to what you're looking at to base your thoughts on.

 

I believe the pottery being exported was Kraak ware and of a lower grade. Like mine. Also, the shape of my vase doesn't appear anywhere except for the Wikipedia site.

 

That doesn't appear to be Chinese, it looks more like a European interpretation of Chinese. May well be old possibly Dutch, the type of tin glazed ware which does go back to the same period as the Chinese and was carried on for a long time. What does the base look like?

 

just cuz they look similar.....

 

From his first thread.

 

The flower style doesn't match up with Dutch origin, nor does the circles and the Islamic patters at the top and bottom of the vase. I have scoured the internet and found the shape of my jar only in the Wikipedia site. If you look closely at the flower on the jar shown on Wikipedia it matches the ones on mine. I am quite certain it is a Ming vase, but I would also be happy to learn otherwise.

 

Please show me an example of a European interpretation that matches. Doesn't the jar on the Wikipedia site look European? They made them look that way for the European market.

 

The Chinese were early to produce blue and white porcelain. The rest of the world really didn't know how to make porcelain so did their best to make things look like Chinese porcelain but on earthenware body. Things developed from there and have been copied and fiddled with for ages and to this day.

Start with question one, what is the body? Is it porcelain? Is it earthenware? and go from there.

I can't help but notice how similar the shaded flower painting style is to some Russian ceramics such as Gzhel however I think they are porcelain rather than earthenware.

 

If your vase was Wanli or any other Chinese style, we would have said. The material and the colours with a yellowish shade are all wrong for Chinese porcelain.

Yes they do. As I said in the other thread, Persian style cartouches can also be found on Dutch Delfts.
On this site is one of countless examples:

https://www.de-delftse-pioen.nl/a-4...elvaas-met-zilvermontuur-ca-1690/#description

I don't have much time, but maybe you can start yourself on pages like these:

https://www.aronson.com/delftmuseum-com/

https://delftsaardewerk.nl/en/discover/how-did-delftware-develop

https://delftsaardewerk.nl/en/discover/what-does-it-look-like

https://delftsaardewerk.nl/en/learn

https://www.de-delftse-pioen.nl/c-3641853/delfts-aardewerk-17e-en-18e-eeuw/

 

The base type, plus the way the blue is laid down you can also see on that picture is not like Chinese production. Chinese items from this period rarely have flat bases and there is usually 'chatter' from the way they were potted. Shape isn't a useful guide for authentication, shapes are easy to copy and there isn't anything special about that particular shape.

If you are still not convinced take it to an expert at a decent auction house for confirmation.

 

The Dutch makers copied works from China, and produced items with their own slant on the designs.

I take it you mean this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_...e:Blue_and_white_jar_Ming_Wanli_1573_1620.jpg

Aside from the shape and colour it has almost no similarities to your item, the paint style, the way the blue is laid down, the way the colour blends into the body is completely different. Yours looks like blue on tin glaze, Chinese is blue on a porcelain body.

 

Thanks all of you for your input. My vase / jar is earthenware therefore I tend to agree now that it isn't Chinese and probably European. I have not found any Dutch ware that has the circular patterns or the simple physical shape mine has. I have noticed some solid blue circles connected with lines on some Gzhel porcelain. It's quite a mystery. I'll keep searching. I'm still puzzled about the shape. Could Wikipedia be wrong about the one listed on their site?

 

the internet is vast...but far from perfect and complete....

"I am quite certain it is a Ming vase, but I would also be happy to learn otherwise."

& that's where we come in !!

 

Here is what I found. Gzhel canisters.

 

The one which you think is like yours is in the Musée Guimet in Paris. I don't know if you live in France, but if you do, you could go and see it.

But as @Ce BCA has already rightly remarked:

"Aside from the shape and colour it has almost no similarities to your item, the paint style, the way the blue is laid down, the way the colour blends into the body is completely different. Yours looks like blue on tin glaze, Chinese is blue on a porcelain body."

You do realize that those are very different from your vase?

 

Every motif and pattern on your piece including the flowers, dot fields, Moresque shapes, the tin glaze, the form and the shading are found on Talavera pottery both Spanish and Mexican.