I worked it for myself, now tell me what I missed or got wrong

Last Sunday I bought a clear glass wine bottle, come jug, for one Euro at a monthly street brocante. It was the shape of an Italian chianti bottle with a handle. Instead, of the bottle wearing a basket, my purchase was heavily decorated with embossed bunches of grapes and vine leaves.

My intention was to display a string of LED lights in it; but my wife didn’t like it. In order to sell it, I need to know something about it, and determine an asking price. I knew nothing about bottles, and my first guess was just pre-World War II. Searching the internet and selling sites, I found very little to guide me, indeed, the sellers of a few bottles that were embossed offered no guidance as to age.

Photo 1


Photo 2
Seam on the bottle neck, and a separate one on the handle clearly seen


Photo 3 Seam down the bottle front, but nothing on the lip


Photo 4 Seam down the bottle neck, but nothing on the lip


Photo 5 No seam on top of lip


I did, however, find a very useful website https://www.truelegacyhomes.com/age-glass-bottles, “How to tell the age of a glass bottle (Identify old bottles). This is what I discovered:

My conclusion was that it was made within a few years either side of 1870.

1. While there were mould seam marks down each side of the bottle, the bottle lip was free of such marks, so also was the bottom. The implication was that the bottle lip had been formed from a single piece of glass, then fixed to the body of the bottle, and shaped by the glassblower. This process changed when the automatic bottle making machine was brought into operation in 1892. Refer to Photo 2 to 5;

2. It wasn’t until 1870 that clear glass came generally and widely available;

3. Before 1821 the push-up cup bottom was not available. The big dimple in the bottom was to trap sediment. It had to be moulded as a separate piece and fitted after the body of the bottle had been assembled, as witnessed by the circumferential seam at the bottom. Bottle making was to remain this way until the 1910s. Refer to Photo 6;

Photo 6 Shows both the blind hole and seam connecting bottom to bod
;

4. The bottle lip on my bottle/jug is known as an “applied double collar” and was used between 1840 to 1870. The lip is sealed with a cork, a method that has been in continuous use since the early 18th Century. Refer to Photos 4 and 5;

5. The Maker’s marks are embossed on the bottom of the jug. Refer to Photos 7, 8 and 9 for elements of details on the bottle bottom. Quality of photos is not good:

a. 92 698 J

b. Zig Zag pattern within a rectangle.

c. Flower with roots growing below [A guess – photographs are a poor quality]

c.

Photo 7


Photo 8


Photo 9



A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS REMAIN OPEN:

A. What is the blind hole that is close to the bottom of the body? It is only on one half of the body. Logic suggests it could be a tooling hole; but I can see no reason for it;

B. I have got nowhere with the Maker’s marks;

C. It was bought in France, and I can see no reason why it would be anything other than French.

My conclusions are that the bottle/jug is Victorian, made before 1992, not made before 1870, and was probable made within five years either side of 1870.

And that how I became a self-taught specialist in old bottles in less than two hours.

I’m sure somebody, probably many of you, will put me right. Thank you all.

 

Did you mean "1892"?

 

I quoted correctly, but haven't checked it out. I thought you had blown a hole in my argument. To quote:

Machine Automation
In 1892, the bottle-making game completely changed with the invention of the semi-automatic bottle machine. Generally called the automatic bottle machine (or ABM), this machine molded the bottle lip along with the bottle’s body. Thus, there was no longer a need to hand-finish the bottles.

 

You said "Victorian, made before 1992" didn't you mean 1892?

 

Cold water time.

The serrations about the bottom are there to help the piece move toward the annealing process as it moves along a conveyor from the blowing machine. Current production.

Sorry.

 

I haven't looked for a bottle like yours however this is a very good and in-depth site for bottles primarily made in the US. They address why it's difficult to use such information when trying to apply to foreign bottles if that's what yours is. The site you linked to is in the US and seems to use SHA as a source.

https://sha.org/bottle/

https://sha.org/bottle/faqs.htm#Why are only bottles produced in the US covered.

5. Why are bottles produced in the United States primarily covered by this website?This geographical limitation is followed on this website for several reasons:

• The art and science of bottle dating and typing is a very complex subject when simply focusing on the history of glassmaking for one specific country - in this case the United States. To significantly cover other areas of the world would entail research well beyond the total lack of external funding for this project, i.e., just the authors time and fiscal resources are involved since his retirement.
• During the late 19th and early 20th centuries (1880s into the 1920s), American bottle manufacturing technology generally progressed much faster than European (and Asian) glassmaking. This resulted in European (and Asian) bottles from the early 20th century showing some manufacturing based traits that would date them as 20 or 30 years older if they had been produced in the U.S. (This factor needs to be considered when dating known foreign bottles as well as those of questionable geographic origin.)
• A broader geographical scope would also entail the creation of a potentially massive website with so many exceptions and regional variations as to significantly reduce its utility.

 

Of course. I missed that one both times, thanks.

 

I agree: that base is much more recent than the nineteenth C.

 

only interesting thing would be to see what exactly is written on the bottom. fill bottle with colored water or dark sand to see it better.
with that handle it's a mass-produced vinegar bottle IMO.

 

I didn't refer to the ring of serrations. The pattern I meant, was in the centre of the serrated ring. There are too many anomalies for the bottle to have been machine made.

 

I'll try that. Any suggestion for a suitable colour?

 

Forgive my ignorance but... Isn't that raised area a panel designed to take a printed label?

Debora

 

I'd say so.

 

It almost certainly is, and as the embossing is grapes, I think it most likely a wine bottle.

 

Well, the size determines usage. Liquor and wine bottles are standardized by law. How much does it hold? And I'm going on record as saying nothing to my eye looks old here.

Debora

 

It is 1.5 litres

 

I took it for smaller on the pic. so yes, wine.

 

Or wine vinegar. I'd almost bet on the latter.

 

I thought about it as well because of the handle but didn't find a system for vinegar bottles. the 1.5 liter correspond to a magnum in the legal system for wine.

 

I didn't know there was a system for vinegar bottles, here in the USA anyway, especially the odd stuff.