Featured Is this old Noritake? one of the resident asian ceramic guys said that they only collected one

... type of NOritake it was one of the earliest Noritake marks. I forget the thread does anyone remember that?

 

I don't remember the thread, nor do I know, but you have one gorgeous handpainted vase! Quality looks right for Noritaki or better ...

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Jap...1FjQIHV6rBpMQ9QF6BAgOEAE#imgrc=JK1nhBmeXmUF0M

Nippon, not specifically Noritake

 

Could this be fake?

America is more common for fakes than europe as Nippon has a whole new meaning in America. There are rarely as many fakes in europe and Noritake replaces or fills the space of Nippon. Nippon Toki Kaisha Ltd the precursor to Noritake was making porcelain in the late 19th and the early 1900's. The Noritake company followed and the 'Komaru' symbol for Noritake was released in 1908.

Morimura Kumi (Morimura Brothers) are the company behind your backmark called the Nippon Maple leaf, they were the founders of Noritake. The Rose design on Nippon vases was likely an origional concept for this 'rose design' on the noritake vases below.

So you can compare the style of the noritake painting and secondly you can also get an idea of the Gold leaf they used. Noritake of that era was i think was better quality than what many refer to as Nippon in my opinion, with a much higher bone china and better artists and factory. Then again Nippon is loved for the era it represents and there are superior Nippon to Noritake, and of course later Noritake is not Nippon. Many people would likely disagree with that and some people don't like Noritake as much.




Here are some examples of the genuine Backmark.





In conclusion, i think your vase is fake, I think the quality is poor and unlikley to be of the standard of the Morimura Brothers, and the backmark also looks fake.

The quality should be the first sign, and i went to so much trouble to make this post because i think that vase is ghastly.


Here is a Nippon which is more likley to be a real Morimura and also has the correct maple leaf backmark.




Here are 2 early Nortiake rose vases.

 

hello Francisco. Thank you for all that information. It does not really surprise me there is something about the painting of the roses that seems off.

I would like to ask: how do you tell that the marks are different? Is it the way they make the "H" and "P"? or is it the lack of "Nippon" underneath? Or the color? What do you look for?

Again thank you for all the information and your time.

 

Here is a link for that discusses fake Nippon marks. It suggests one way of knowing if a backmark is fake is the size, if it greater than 1/4 inch and closer to a 1/2 inch then the mark is fake;

Also your mark is very similar to the fake mark in the website i linked below;

this fake mark




https://myriadtradingco.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/nippon-backstamps-and-known-dates-of-manufacture/






However the best way to know if something is fake is the poor quality of the item. With your vase the porcleain looks modern and of very poor quality, Nippon and Noritake have a very illustrious porcelain, that is has a white creamy lustre due to the very high bone density used in its production, when you handle a real Noritake you will notice the characteristic of the porcelain and it is quite hard to fake.

Tyr get your hands on a 1920's Nortiake and examine the porcelain and you will see the shimmering lustrious white, it is almost trademark. The porcelain is very fine indeed.

 

Here are a couple of pics of a Noritake vase and cover. Heavily gilded with gold swiggles on a peach bacground. Here one can see that pure white porcelain mentioned by Francisco.

 

That's very nice, Norman.

It shows the Maruki mark which is the one I was thinking about earlier in the thread

 

Maruki?

Gotheborg refers to that mark as Komaru.

 

I think that became a mini controversy in the world of Noritake whether it was indeed Komaru or Maruki. Someone even wrote to a retired officer at Noritake to sort it out.

About the Maruki Mark

The Maruki symbol is the Corporation Motif of the Morimura Kumi Group of Companies.

The symbolism behind the Maruki Backstamp is as follows -

1. The centre design of Maruki was taken from the Chinese Character 'Kon' of Konnan, meaning 'DIFFICULTY'. (far left)
2. The centre (tree or 'ki') of square was modified to new design and the stem of tree was also modified to spears, these spears to break through the difficulty situation. (second from left)
3. Finally to settle everything smoothly and peacefully, cut off four corners and made them to circle.'(third from left)
4. Application of use of Maruki Mark on backmark with Noritake (Company Name) at top and Made In Japan (Country of Origin) at base. This mark has several variations which were used from as early as 1902 in its simplest form without any words.

Application of use:

The Maruki symbol was used not only for Morimura Backstamps, but also for Noritake backstamps, Toyo Toki Kaisha (present day Toto & Co) Kokura China, chinaware products, logos of Morimura Brothers Incorporated companies, letterheads and envelopes, stencil marks of wooden boxes and cartons for export and domestic goods, workman's livery, company flag, employee's badges and more.
11.04.2004

Noritake have advised that the term 'Komaru' is not (or is no longer) the correct term for the symbol which appears as a spider mark inside a circle. The the correct term is 'Maruki.' (With thanks to C Suzuki Retired Officer Noritake Co. Japan.)

Addition Research - 28.11.2005

With additional information from the Morimura Website we include this reference information for clarification.

The Japanese character for "Difficulty" or Konnan

"Because you're doing business with people from other countries, where ideas and customs differ from your own, you're bound to run into difficulties, and you won't succeed until you overcome those difficulties" — To ensure that these words from MORIMURA BROS., INC. founder Ichizaemon Morimura VI would not be forgotten, the Japanese character for "difficulty" takes a prominent position in the company logo."

Referenced from the "Roots of the Morimura's Company Logo and original Philosophy" by Ichizaemon Morimura VI At 81 years of age (1919)

 

Thanks Norman, As soon as one has a noritake they will apppreciate what we mean.

 

These starting showing up in gift and housewares stores here in the US in the late 1990's or early 2000's along with fake Limoges porcelain. They had foil labels for China which came off very easily. I recognize this color scheme as a common one on these fakes. I was so angry that one of my favorite craft stores was carrying them that I stopped shopping there.

 

DGB jwc

Did you mean the OPS picture...this one. I am not sure what item you are referring. USA has lots of fake Nippon. Uk has almost no fake Nippon.

 

Yes, I did mean the OPS picture. All the other vases posted are genuine and I did not mean to imply otherwise. Sorry for the confusion.
Don

 

Hi Sunday silence

I am sorry that there is an opinon that the vase is fake, please don't be disheartened, there are many authentic items out there. You can always post a picture here of a potential item you are thinking of getting and members can do their best to advise you if it is authentic or not.

Obviously always take advice with a pinch of salt, i have seen threads where everyone agrees a vase is fake and then it transpires it was authentic. It happens.

Happy hunting.

 

Yes, I agree that vase is certainly not a real Nippon. I am more knowledgeable of Noritake than Nippon, so i tread more carefully with Nippon in my opinions but if we can help a potential buyer from getting a fake then it is worth speaking out .

 

everybody thank you again. I have gained so much information no need to apologize Thanks everyone