Another one needs help with a Satsuma [trinket box this time]

This morning I went to the most strange and fantastic brocante that I have ever attended; in act I went twice, and contemplating a third visit. The results I will post later, but now I would appreciate your help determining if this is genuine and old:













Inside the lid


Dimensions are 10.5 cm and height 5.0 cm.

What do people think? Thanks for your help

 

It's one of the Chinese Satsuma knock off's, 1980+

 

The printed Satsuma on the bottom says not made in Japan to me and the way the ladies are painted on the lid also looks European. If you can get better focused images of the decor, that opinion my change. Could be imported

 

Agree with the above.

 

Looks like I've blown another €0.50. Will try for a better image.

@Ce BCA @John Brassey @Bakersgma

Looks like I've blown another €0.50; But here is shot that has a little better definition. My wife said the woman looked more European than Asian.

 

Well I don't think you can go wrong at 0.50, you could get more for it on a car boot sale. Generally speaking anything Chinese/Japanese with Western text is likely to be more recent and/or a repro. There are some inter-war items with English but in general they are not especially valuable.

 

Some people firmly belive these are Gosu blue ( imperial satsuma) satsuma and are made of real gold and will pay $100 for them. Crazy, I have been in long arguments with such people, as i kow they are Chiense royal satsuma 1980. However they are so insistent and they have links and websites to back them up, and believe it or not there are many sites that support it and some believe they are by a famous artist.

 

How does one market to these sites so as to get on the gravy train? I don't just like your comment, I love it.

 

I guess just sell it on ebay/catawiki as a Gosu blue imperial satsuma. There is an artist, and the websites that support it, I wil get the info later, as I am not at my main pc right now. If i recall one sold on Catawiki and they described it as gosu satsuma with an apocryphal backmark and referenced the artist. So if catawiki are happy to sell them as such, then you should be good. I will find the name of the artist, but bear in mind i hate these Chinese satsuma, but if the crazy people want them, then maybe there is something in this whole cryptic artist BS;

 

It's not gosu blue, imperial or satsuma though..... That would be misleading for those who aren't up on the details.

 

I'll go with this, I won't even give it to my local charity shop, just keep it as a 1980's Chinese fake. Thanks.

 

There's nothing wrong with selling it described accurately - Chinese Ceramic Jar in the Japanese Satsuma Style c1980's - for example. That would be perfectly fair and no one is going to think it's a Japanese antique.

 

Y@Ce Bca

yes but who are we to argue with these people I have been through the wars with collectors of these Chinese Satsuma and they have lots of links and back up information to the point where once or twice i have really questioned whether it might be true. As long as you stick to the script then it transitions into that little bubble they have created. The script being that this is from the artist Akira kokorzashi and is Gosu blue and the the gold is real gold.

CAtawiki call it a spurious backmark and name. so they know it is fake, however there is such a following that they go ahead and sell it.

Here is what your up against.....There is a very strong bubble built around a squiggly spurios backmark that many of the Chinese Royal Satsuma have and thus they are described as 19th century meiji satsuma by Akira Kokorozashi and so the OP's vase is therefore a meiji satsuma by Akira Kokorozashi. Just as a famille rose is a canton export, no matter if it is signed or not. Now by the end of this you will be wondering if there really is such an artist called Akira Kokorozashi to justify all the confusion... and I think it is just a symbol 志 which means “will”, “aspiration” or “ambition”. However no one seems to really know.

https://www.justanswer.com/antiques/be841-need-insurance-appraisal-help-identifying-maker-s-mon.html





https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/19775...se-mark-ming-zhi-japan-meiji-period-1868-1912




https://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=96989








Litaxuling kelly and many others have = has listed the backmark as Meiji.... This backmark is very common on Chinese royal satsuma.

http://litaxulingkelley.blogspot.com/p/japanese-porcelain-marks.html




https://www.loveantiques.com/items/...tury-ming-zhi-akira-kokorozashi-vase-LA317431





https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124886510668?hash=item1d13d0ec4c:g:JgYAAOSwevRe473H

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333265735043?hash=item4d982f8d83:g:npIAAOSwa0VaEoEx

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133673945309

 

First and last aren't Satsuma nor claiming to be as far as I can see, and this just illustrates what trouble you get into by believing random info on the internet. The post on Asian art forum is just some person passing an (incorrect) opinion, he provides no sources or backup and even says he hasn't found other info.

Lita's mark afaik isn't referring to Satsuma.

And as for the 2nd two on ebay (1st isn't Satsuma), a fool and their money. If people buy them when they come to sell up at some point in the future they will be in for a nasty shock.

There is clearly some mix up between a Chinese mark and an artist somewhere down the line and the internet is perpetuating it. Happens often, look up 'Royo and Moser' for a good example a few years back. At some point it will get corrected and lots of people will have lost money.

 

@Ce BCA @Francisco G Kempton
And all I wanted to asked was "I would appreciate your help determining if this is genuine and old:"

I'm pretty certain know that the answer to both 'genuine and old', is NO. But I suspect that this argument will go on and on.

Thank you both for helping me to decide what to do with it. I think!|

 

Hi Brian

That bowl is indeed a Chinese Royal satsuma 1980. It does not have the Squiggly backmark but many identical do have.

@Ce BCA is of course correct and it would be more appropriate to describe it as 1980 Chinese Royal satsuma pr something of that nature as that is what it is.

Simply describing it as Satsuma is misleading because it is not absolutely is not Satsuma in anyway even though the chinese maker has marked it as Satsuma. Satsuma is japanese and quite specific.

I was being ever slightly cynical because i have been in many arguments with people that get angry when I tell them their 1980 chinese vase is not Satsuma, and sometimes at the end of it all ..I sometimes wonder is there an artist called Akira Kokorozashi who made these in the 19th century.

Believe it or not some people collect the Chinese satsuma marked by Akira Kokorozashi, and would pay for that vase. You can hit them over the head with a frying pan but they still collect them.

 

@Francisco G Kempton @Ce BCA Thank you, the two of you. I wouldn't ever have misrepresented it; but I like the idea of putting it on Ebay under its true colours. I don't have room for it, despite it being only a small piece.

I'll let you know what result I achieve, and thanks again. I know a little more about Satsuma, or, at least, what it isn't.