Featured Finally finished with restore of my Shibayama box

If I didn’t use those fragments of ivory, what should have been done with them?

I abhor the use of new ivory in today’s mass markets. Billions of tons would be required to feed the appetite of our greedy populations. Prices would be pennies and nothing good can come from it. Disgusting in our day an age.

We are a different world than before. We don,t need whale oil for our lanterns as we don’t have to own beaver hats to keep our heads warm anymore, etc. etc. etc. Lucky us.

But until you walk the mile in the shoes(those that could afford them) of a different time, it’s best not to judge them for what they lived.

Im assuming your preference would be to throw all the old ivory in the garbage, never to be seen or thought of moving forward? No selling, owning, repairing or for that matter admiring. Indeed, We could do that, buy what a horrible waste of beauty, talent, culture, and history(be it good or bad) that would be.


all IMHO

Regarding patina, it is a personal preference on all material. Neither is right or wrong, it is only ones thinking that will make it so.

 

He told me it took him 18 months to restore. Paid very handsomely for it too. Was picked up from his home by owner and shipped to England. Arrived badly damaged. WOW

So my question to him was “Was it the shipper or restorers fault?”. Glad I already paid before my comment.

With the money the owner spent, he should have personally higher a jet and brought it there himself

 

Since it is Japanese, it was probably made to present a gift to an esteemed visitor, who would put it on display rather than use it.
The visitor's heirs probably didn't value it and kept it in the attic to gather dust and grime until, after decades, someone came across it and thought it could be worth something. That is the way it usually goes.

 

@mmarco102
So you abhor the use of ivory in todays market but make an exception for your own repairs, don't see how the price affects anything either, doesn't change the fact an elephant died for that ivory.
Your justification is, well its already been cut so may as well use it? yeah it should be thrown away its a product of brutal animal murder, might want to look into elephant killings for ivory, see where that product came from. I admire the beauty of a LIVE elephant, where the tusks should belong.
Some sick admiration of an elephants bones for the use in a shiny object is twisted.
Yeah we do live in a different world now where we have more information and alternative resources, we don't need whale oil anymore, or ivory.
Whoever profits off the item is to blame, the only people I sympathise with are the hunters forced into killing there countries great animals and heritage.
And back then people knew what went into the ivory trade, don't belittle there intelligence saying "they didn't know" they choose to use it because of the demand. Culture? its a stain on our culture, genocide of eleplant's like an other creature. Talent? anything can be carved doesn't have to be ivory, such as
a sythetic alternative,

"Synthetic ivory can now be crafted to the same diagnostic standards as genuine ivory (see M. E. Sims et al. Ethnobiol. Lett.2, 40–44; 2011), and its price in China is only about 14% of that of real ivory. First manufactured in 1865 to save elephants tusks from being turned into billiard balls"

 

@shellacjack , I think you didn't read the first paragraph in the link mmarco posted.
It says:
"All items will be made from documented pre-1990 African elephant ivory."

Which means that the bits and pieces marco got from him are also made from documented pre-1990 African elephant ivory.
On this side of the pond that would still be illegal, but in Florida it isn't.
That is why it also says:
"No ivory can be sold to persons who are not a legal resident of Florida. We will strictly adhere to the requirements of the Federal regulations allowing these sales to Florida residents."

 

@shellacjack, your comprehension skills are lacking as well as your Holier than thou attitude. I don’t support elephant hunting.... WOW SMH

Get off my case at this point, I don’t need you to dictate your tree hugging enforcement police kiddy wishes.

You want it all thrown away and I don’t. end of conversation.

You like cow/steak? Maybe.... you use wood in your home/rainforest? Maybe. No wood? No steak? Well start posting in here to all the others that do.

It’s a damn cruel world out there in many ways and mankind has been a big part of it. what a joke

PS, Hope to God you never listen to piano music, those bastards. Throw them all away.

 

Hey @shellacjack -- relax jack! It's all good. Engage in a conversation, sure. Troll someone repeatedly? Not cool.

 

@Any Jewelry I read the link, I'm aware its pre 1990.

 

@Potteryplease I'm trying to engage in conversation, is critique not welcome here?

 

Polite conversation is always allowed. As a simple guideline as to how to go about polite conversation there is this:

"2 – . All Antique Forum members, young, old and in between, will treat all other members with respect and be civil at all times, .

Cyber bullying will not be tolerated. And it is up to the sole discretion of the Moderators as to what does, or does not, constitute cyber bullying; as are the consequences for such."

https://www.antiquers.com/threads/the-rules.109/

As for critique, wording is important. If you choose to insult, then your 'critique' escalates, for obvious reasons.
If you read the rules, and engage in conversation without hurling insults at the other person, things will be fine.
Being civil is also a better way to get any point you wish to make across. Insults close minds.

 

Well, in a thread titled 'Finally finished with my restoration...' and that started with a link to an initial post from back in 2018, repeatedly challenging the author on their restoration choices seems, well, like the wrong tone.

Again, engagement is good, critique? Maybe if asked for, but an accusatory tone is probably distracting in my opinion. Thanks for considering.

 

@mmarco102

Dude, your deluding yourself continuing to use ivory = supporting the trade.
Your retort is to call me a tree hugger, say end of conversation (in the middle of a paragraph), and digress into childish name calling, great comprehensive skills there.
Yes I do think the current stocks of ivory should be , what will happen when they run out and we're still in the habit of using ivory?
Your using extreme comparisons that don't have any basis,
-cows are in a completely different situation to elephants, one is livestock the other an endangered species.
- I feel we should stop using ivory so I must want all ivory products destroyed, there's a difference between preserving history and perpetuating the practice.
-Wood is a managed material, or so it should be and I don't condone cutting down the last of our rainforests for rare hardwoods either, there are needs though, like you said houses, furniture, which is why we should be very selective and careful of what materials we choose to use, what we need to use, and what is ultimately for self indulgence.
Are you genuinely trying to rally meat eaters as your defence?
Traditions don't equate as an example to be followed, ivory was fashionable hence why it was used so extensively, not all pianos have ivory keys, its not even an essential part of the instrument.

 

You’re a 28 year old child that recently just stop going to the movies with his parents. With respect to all other member in antiquers I will decline to respond in a fashion you deserve.

As far as I can see, you appear to be a time out baby. Your opinions are meaningless and I refuse to dispute with you, as it might be construed as child abuse. No one really cares for your perspective at this argumentative point.

What on earth makes you think you have the final say on anything? Your mother? Get lost

PS, go ahead and have the last word as I know immaturity requires it. I’m done here.

PSS, ooops I almost forgot. Welcome to the forum of antiquers that love antiques.


I would like to thank all the elephants that help make this video possible.

 

One of the things I love about this forum is the intelligent discussion and questioning of why,where,when and who.
Reasoned putting forwards of facts and beliefs open to discussion and change that lead to a conclusion.
Ranting, rudeness and trampling on others views without actually listening and hearing what they are saying will never win your cause ShellacJack. In this case, listening to how the replacement Ivory was responsibly sourced from old pieces. That is the important bit - old NOT new and responsibly sourced.
An intelligent and reasonable question would be ‘how do you know it is old/vintage/antique ivory?’. That would invite discussion and education and maybe open minds.
No one on this forum agrees with sourcing modern ivory. Old ivory is just that, old, elephant dead, too late. Shocking and abhorrent but to then destroy what is left that is beautiful is also wrong.
If I was an elephant who was killed for my ivory I would be even more distraught that the one thing of beauty to remind people of how important it is that modern ivory poaching is stopped was destroyed.

 

... just ignore the troll. Obviously has an agenda.

 

No one in the Western world is in the habit of using ivory.
And if you bother to read more threads on the forum, you will see that we condemn ivory poaching and the use of recent ivory. We always take CITES regulations into account when advising people.
In doing so we are more consistent than CITES itself, which in recent years has allowed the Southern African nations to lift the ban on (confiscated) ivory sales a few times.

China is the main buyer, but Chinese are very uneducated about ivory. Common misconceptions there are that tusks are shed naturally or that you can cut them and they grow back. Clearly more education is needed in China and other East Asian countries. Verbal abuse doesn't help people move forward, knowledge does.

It is widely known that these people you sympathise with are professional mercenaries, armed with modern weapons of war. They use helicopters and AK47s. They are not forced, it is a choice. They are much better armed and much better paid than the wildlife guards who risk their lives to protect elephants, rhinos etc.
In Congo's Garamba park alone, 13 park rangers were killed during a 3 year period. This is something that goes on in all African elephant and rhino countries.
Yet your sympathies lie with the mercenaries. These sympathies, other 'arguments' you have used, as well as your belligerent behaviour, give me reason to question your ethics. I think it is high time you got off that high horse of yours.

Don't bother to reply, you have managed to kill someone else's nice thread, that is more than enough.

 

I’m sure this kids intentions were originally good. Just hasn’t learned that nobody ever wins an argument.

Discussions don’t contain demanding ones personal view be excepted as the final say. This forum has a tremendous variety of views, experience and knowledge. I for one have come to appreciate every comment I read on any post. Even when they come from a negative place, such as we just witnessed. I have thick skin and get along with myself just fine .

My apologies for all the flak. This board is better than that.

 

Well put. And by the way... nice box!