Featured Men's Sterling Turquoise and Coral Ring mark, Native American?

Probably bought in Arizona, cannot find the mark online, it is I guess an A space Mc? Haven't cleaned it up, sorry. Also, when searching eBay I see some jewelry marked "old pawn". What does that mean? Thanks.

 

https://www.antiqueamericanindianart.com/old-pawn---what-does-it-mean.html

 

Thank you for publishing this enlightening article. One of my pet peeves is that any piece of silver jewelry with turquoise and some tarnish is labelled "Old Pawn".

 

and they all wish it was.....!

 

AMS, Alice M. Shirley, Navajo. The mark was first used in 1976.
This looks from that period, so I'd say late '70s.

 

I actually have a genuine piece of pawned NA: I know that, 'cos it came from a pawn shop in Reno! I do so agree on that misuse.

 

Thank you so much! Is there a website that mark information for further reference?

 

So, I gather true "old pawn" is only found in museums?

 

I'm sure it is found outside museums; but most items that you'll see using the terms "dead pawn" or "old pawn" are probably not; they might be old, but with no verification that they actually were pawned.
You'd need some good provenance/history on the item to verify that it actually was "old pawn" and dated to the correct period.

 

http://www.art-amerindien.com/signature_picto-hallmarks.htm#navajo

...now u won't need us anymore....

 

Dead pawn and old pawn should only be used if the item can be proved to have been purchased from a pawn shop. I'd also be highly suspect of anything being called old pawn that's signed. The real stuff generally wasn't as far as I know.

 

Gee, I don't agree with this. In my opinion "old pawn" is the correct term for any handmade native american jewelry from the late 19th to early 20th century that could have been in a pawn store, regardless of whether it can be proved that it really was. Almost nobody would have held onto a pawn store receipt from the early 20th century so that isn't a fair test. And a pawn store price tag after that time doesn't really show anything either since a lot of that will be Fred Harvey or other more modern pieces (buying from a pawn store today or 30 years ago doesn't make it old pawn).

 

You can use the term, but it's like calling all Delizza and Elster rhinestone pieces "Juliana". Unless it still has the tags on it showing the name, it probably isn't, and this doesn't stop anyone from using the name as a search term. (true Juliana was less than 10% of their output at a rough guess, if that much) I wouldn't do it personally, but I was trained by sticklers.

 

I don't really see that as being the same, since in the case of the rhinestones the issue is which company made them, and there have apparently been people who have studied their jewelry construction techniques, materials, etc to be able to conclude whether it was really made by Delizza and Elster. Sure there are a lot of people who don't go to that trouble and call everything D&E, but that doesn't mean that it isn't possible to correctly identify real D&E. Very similar to furniture, where even unmarked furniture can be identified based on materials and construction if you have enough experience and know what to look for.

I think the same is true of native american silver. If a piece was made early enough to end up in a pawn store, what difference does it make if it actually went to a pawn store or not? Imagine a pair of identical rings from the same maker sold to brothers - one pawns his, and the other doesn't. I don't see how that could possibly make the one that went to a pawn store different from the other one. They are still identical rings from the same maker, made at the same time.

 

Maybe this shouldn't be done for strict accuracy, but when I see something described as old pawn, I take it to mean what Jeff says, as it seems now to be routinely used that way, especially if the piece is something like a heavy concho belt. My understanding is that pieces might be pawned & redeemed multiple time as finances ebbed & flowed. Can't think of any way to prove that an old piece was never used to pawn. Out of curiosity, do serious collectors insist that an item being offered for sale must have last been in the inventory of a pawn shop before coming into the hands of the seller?

It's like all old cameos are souvenirs of the Grand Tour, even if many/most, especially in the US, were probably store-bought locally & 'Grand Tour' originally meant a trip taken by young men, often with a tutor, to finish off their education.

 

My point was that what IS done isn't necessarily the way it ought to be done, even though it seems to be standard practice. Buyers don't insist on seeing the pawn ticket for "old pawn" stuff (it's become all but meaningless from overuse) , but if you're selling something to me as "dead pawn" you'd darned well better have the ticket with it. Personally I wouldn't call it old pawn if I didn't know for certain.

I don't know enough about cameos to comment, but if something is called Grand Tour, I'd be expecting 18th to 19th century Continental European tourist souvenirs.

 

If a cameo is beautiful & well-executed, how the original owner or latest seller came by it is immaterial, as long as it is not stolen property! The inclusion of 'Grand Tour' in a listing does not sway me one way or the other & I don't even give a thought to whether or not the seller is being strictly accurate. Unsupported claims that a cameo was once the property of the Romanovs, on the other hand...

If I collected ancient intaglios, proof of provenance would be extremely important, since there is so much fraud. It's always interesting to have provenance, but unless a previous owner was famous/of historical importance, it doesn't add much of anything to the value of a Victorian or later cameo. Quality completely supersedes it, while a piece signed by a known cutter is likely to fetch more than an anonymous one, even if the unsigned cameo is technically better.

In what way does having been pawned add value/interest to NA work? Or is that just the way it is? Guess what I'm wondering is why do sellers think that claiming 'old pawn' adds appeal for buyers?

 

On Ebay "old pawn" is most likely key word spamming,it's only a sales gimmick for the ignorant.Unless the piece is marked with a known maker's mark it could have been made by anyone including the old"white guy" 40 plus years ago.

 

It is my understanding that early pawn shops allowed 1st nations people a way to get hold of much needed cash for food & supplies by pawning their family and ceremonial jewelry.
Such items were usually of high quality....and many could not be redeemed .

 

Ah, this points out something I was overlooking: styles & techniques have stayed the same for long periods of time when it comes to NA work, while cameos changed in selection of subject, quality of work & setting features such as hinges & clasps a great deal 1840 - 1940. If someone represents a 1930s cameo as from the 1880s, I can easily tell it is not. In that way NA silver is more like Roman intaglios. If the seller's representation is not reliable, you may not be able to know what you are really getting. Collectors' values are essentially the same in both areas; evidence given by the work itself is not.