Shreve, Crump & Low Freedom Trail Sterling Tankard - genuine? comps?

I have sent a request to the Sheffield Assay Office requesting verification of the SC&LCo maker mark in oval cartouche used on the 1973 and 1975 hallmarks. Not sure if they will do so without a research payment, but hoping for the best!

I still haven't figured out the Sheffield connection i.e. why use of a British hallmark on these pieces as SC&L seems to have been in America for an extended period, and they have their own American marks.

The Newport Metals Company has a limited google trail, but what is there strongly connects them with silver and gold activities, so still pointing to them as the probable actual manufacturer of the tankards.

Dave

 

Searching for SC&L advertising - hoping to find a picture/ad of the tankard. Nothing in years 1972, 73, 74, 75, 76. Nothing via keywords tankard, freedom trail, north church, minute man (with advertising).

 

I received an initial response from the Sheffield Assay Office today: "I have had a search on our database but unable to find the sponsors mark you describe ...". They have requested a copy of the pictures showing the hallmarks, which have been sent to them today.

 

Just a quick update on the Assay Office. After the pictures of the hallmarks were emailed to them, I received an automated reply letting me know that the person doing the research was out of the office until Thursday, so I don't expect to hear back until the end of the week. The researcher handling this only works there 2 days a week, so it could potentially be longer. I will update this thread once I have their information. To recap, they checked the mark based on my description, and did not find the SC&LCo mark in their records. They requested pictures of the hallmarks, which have been emailed. We are awaiting further word from them.

In trying to understand WHY something might have happened, I took a look at the historical silver price record. The period from 1971 to 1980 was an unusually active time for silver. From a low of around $8.00 in 1971, silver went up to an incredible $111 in 1980, with an earlier peak around $30 in 1974. The Hunt brothers were caught trying to corner the market, and silver prices fell steeply after March 27, 1980.

So, during the time that these Tankard sets came out, silver was almost always going up in price, and was at historical highs. Total speculation now on my part, but given that historical backdrop, maybe someone got caught with a futures contract that became worthless, or the rise in silver prices made it a money loser to manufacture these as originally conceived. This was not a normal market during those years, and maybe an "old school" silver company (SC&L) got caught in a bad position, their long existence in a conservative market blinding them to the reality of what was happening.

At this point, I remain most puzzled at the inability to find a single comparable for the Tankards. With SC&L claiming a population of 800 pieces, each individually packaged in beautiful presentation case as shown in our pictures, these would not be something carelessly tossed in the garbage. Neither were they so valuable and rare that they would be stashed in a vault and forgotten. Even if only every few years, you would expect some ownership turnover and resulting internet record. So far NOTHING discovered for the Tankards, and NOTHING searching SC&L advertising for that period, trying to find an ad or some other confirmation of their existence. Very strange indeed.

Dave

 

Just completed direct searches on Invaluable and Worthpoint, including non-specific object searches (i.e. leaving off "Tankard" and instead viewing everything from SC&L): NOTHING. Since last night, I have spent a few hours repeating the previous searches, using DuckDuckGo (duckduckgo.com) instead of google. Some excitement at first, as I was seeing some new/different results, but now can report no sign of the Tankards there either. Some of the DuckDuckGo results were from sites offering large numbers of products, so conducted searches on those sites where possible, and found nothing helpful. DuckDuckGo has image search like google, and used it too (general note: DuckDuckGo works nice since last time I used few years ago - plan to use it to supplement my google searching in the future).

So, at least 4+ hours searching in all, and I still can not find any comparable, trying every search trick I can think of, and including direct searches on sites like Worthpoint that had some 800 Shreve results covering sales for 10 or more years in time. Nothing either on Pinterest where Tankard enthusiasts have posted pictures, nor on Etsy by collection sellers. I keep thinking I am missing something!???

Dave

 

Do you have a good closeup photo of the medallion on the tankard?The information photos from the booklet have as much nonsense as the Wikipedia information of silver solder.

 

I will add those by mid-week - I am working at home at the moment and don't have the actual items at hand. I've been doing more searches, and wanted to see if those had any useful keywords. Been doing searches like "shreve" and "bicentennial" or "special edition" or "only 800" or "18 ounces" or "recalled" and more. Plenty of gurgling fish, but nothing on the Tankards!

I'll add those pics as soon as I can. Dave

 

Here are some more photos:

• For each tankard, a picture of the medallion with surrounding text, a picture of the text on the back side, and a picture of the front cover of the accompanying booklet.
• A copy of an original receipt given for the 2nd tankard. There was a copy of a letter attached to the receipt (not shown). It was from the buyer, asking that no more tankards in the series be sent (strongly suggesting that these were part of a subscription purchase). No reason for the cancellation was given.

Dave

 

Another search effort last night. Added Bing to the list of search engines, and made big effort looking for advertising in the early to mid 70's, or connected with keyword "bicentennial". (Bing note: another search engine I haven't used in quite a while, saw lots of beautiful pictures of silver, had problems twice with system locking up which was unsettling although all was fine after reboot. Good supplement to the other search engines and will use again, hopefully no lock ups next time). Also additional checks on eBay, plus on local Australia and UK eBay sites. Would at least like to know what "Freedom Trail" title is associated with the other 6 designs.

Random thought: Could this have been a project for some junior member of the SC&L team (or family member)? The piece count seems low for this project and I would have thought it would have been subscribed to fairly quickly with any kind of advertising.

Memo to self: "Take vacation soon - very critical. Visions of gurgling fish, even when eyes closed now sure sign of impending dementia. Repeat frequently: "Gurgling fish are not real. Gurgling fish are not smiling at you. Gurgling fish are not speaking to you". No shortage at all of the famous gurgling fish.

 

1971 was the start for a lot of new 'collectables'. The bicentennial was the theme for many. A lot of sterling was used. By the late '70s this fad was dying off. Much of the sterling from the early '70s was scrapped in 1980. Very little of this stuff ever achieved any collectable value. I think you have their weight in silver as value.

 

I buy that theory, plus you had the rise in silver prices as the 70's advanced serving to encourage sales for scrapping. I do think the SC&L name may add something to the value, as there seems to be much interest in their items from what I've gathered researching so far. On the other hand, the quality issues don't jibe with the majority of their products - that's why I've been wondering if some junior employee was responsible for managing this project. That verdigris on the handle seams makes me think there wasn't much oversight on the manufacturing side. The real kicker on this is going to be what the assay office says about the mark. That could be a real big deal.

 

Assay office update: The researcher investigating this matter today confirmed receipt of the emailed photos (previously was automated receipt). They said they would be following up next Thursday or Friday (i.e. next week). I will post updates when I hear further. Dave

 

I saw that piece on ebay, sadly i erase it from my watch list.

 

Hello Moeller - do you remember any of the title? Or approximately when you saw it? We have some 3rd party software that can search the last year on eBay. If older, I can still find it via search engine if you have keywords, although won't be able to access the content of the listing. Any lead is appreciated.

The reasons I want a comparable are not so much how to price these. Rather, I would like to see how they are described in general, how the silver content is represented, to see what the other 6 designs are, and maybe find a picture of the hallmark on a match to the 2 designs we have. From what I can see about British hallmarks in general, the hallmark is not manufactured into the product. Instead, it is individually applied at the time of assay, and piece to piece variance of the hallmark (strike, location, etc) would be expected (can any of the silver experts confirm that? Is that still true today, with modern manufacturing?) So viewing the hallmark on a matching piece would show if it was a manufactured element (if it matched, including the hallmark defects that we see on both of our pieces - i.e. the filled in rose, partial fill on the crown, and so on.)

The big picture goal is to be able to accurately represent the boxed tankards to potential buyers. There remains several puzzles that bear on the value and might even be an issue on where they can be sold. For example, if we get confirmation about a hallmark problem, what happens with the British market. Could they be sold into that market? A key of course is whether these are solid sterling as represented, or instead are there alloy fineness issues (material less than sterling), or non-silver parts hidden within the tankards? With that open question, it would be deceptive to have potential buyers rely on the hallmark and silver description in the booklet, given our suspicions. That would be an easy sales out, and either tankard would fetch close to melt value, if not more. Instead, hopefully we will find out what really happened here, and what the truth is about the content of the pieces, and whether they have been accurately represented by the manufacturer. Earlier, we all thought it didn't make sense these would be faked because it would be a lot of work, with limited reward. I have questions of the same sort here - why? Why go to the trouble of even using the Sheffield mark, when SC&L has their own American mark that should have been effortless to use? I've been looking for SC&L examples of use of a Sheffield mark, and all the pieces I see use the American mark. Why possibly use inferior material, when you are making something on behalf of one of America's oldest companies, with a reputation of quality and honesty, dating back hundreds of years at stake?

Hopefully the Sheffield results happen next week. That will at least identify what direction to go, and where future research inquires may be helpful. Although our initial inquiry with the company wasn't productive, that isn't too unexpected given how long ago these came out, and how much staff turnover would have taken place since then. With a bit more data, we'll make another attempt to get to someone at SC&L with the history and level of knowledge in the company to really be helpful. That won't be the average person answering their phone, and who probably wasn't even born yet, when these products first hit the market!

Dave

 

let me recall, for sure was this year, 3 or 4 months ago. I'm going to check my screen shots.
Moeller

 

Sorry, not found. Just recall: searching under scrap silver-silver scrap (not scrap) or sterling pitcher.
Good luck

 

Thank you. I'll post an update if I can locate.

 

News from the Sheffield Assay Office:

" ... I can confirm the dates you have for the pieces, The date Letter E was used to commemorate the bicentenary of Sheffield Assay Office in 1973. Replicating the date letter used in 1773.


The Makers Mark/ Sponsors mark SC&LCo is that of Shreve Cramp & Son Company who registered with the Sheffield Assay Office on the 16th August 1972, the company was based in Boston, Massachusetts and they had articles made for them at Copper Bros and Roberts and Belk in Sheffield hence the Sheffield Hallmarks."

A follow up inquiry clarified that it was Shreve, Crump & Low, not "Cramp & Son":

" ... The articles are Sterling Silver, as shown by the Lion Passant, 92.5% Silver. Just gone back to the register, these are handwritten documents and the writing is terrible! Yes I can confirm Shreve Crump & Low."

We will likely proceed with eBay auctions on both tankards in the next week or so, but mentioning both our investigation, and the response by the Sheffield Assay Office (who was a delight to work with).

I remain puzzled at my failure to turn up even one other comparable, or even advertising mentioning the limited edition sterling tankards, but the Assay Office response strongly supports the conclusion that the tankards are genuine, so we now have enough information to tell the whole story in our listing. The population remaining of the original 800 tankards (100 of each of eight designs) must be so low that the tankards rarely surface in public sales and are works that are generally unknown to collectors.

Thank you to everyone who helped along the way! Dave

 

Copper didn't make sense, so I googled the name. It should be "Cooper Brothers" in Sheffield in the quoted text above.

 

I admire your dogged determination on researching this! Thanks for the updates.

I love researching things and sometimes it's more valuable to me to learn something than any monetary return acheived. That said, I hope it turns out to have more than silver scrap value for you. (And I hope silver goes up too).