Featured Italian or German?

Trying to determine if this piece (Europa and The Bull) is Italian or German. It's been sold by a few auction companies before it made it's way to me as a gift. One identified it as Capodimonte and another as Volkstedt. The maker's mark looks a lot like Capodimonte from the 19th century. However, I've also seen it suggested that Carl Thieme used this mark in Germany in the late 19th to early 20th century. The only reference to a Thieme mark like this (that I can find) indicates it wasn't used by the company until 1957. This piece feels older than that. All that being said, this is almost identical to a Ludwigsburg piece of the same period. (I know it's not Ludwigsburg.) Anyone have any thoughts on where this piece was made and by whom? Thanks in advance!

 

Is this one yours?

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/86288759_19c-dresden-volkstedt-figurine-vase-europa-and-bull

 

I don't know if these help but they are from Röntgen's book of German, Bohemian and Austrian marks.

 

Yes. That's mine. Apparently, it really made the rounds before it was given to me.

 

Of all the marks I've seen, Ernst Bohne & Söhne seems to be the closest...probably circa 1920. I'm not convinced this is Capodimonte. Their crown mark that closest matches this one dates from 1771-1834. I don't think my piece is that old. The mold itself is almost identical to a Meissen version of "Europa and The Bull" from the late 19th century which is another reason I'm leaning toward this being a German piece.

 

So you're selling it? And the auction house is calling it 19th C Volkstedt?

 

No...it was just given to me as a gift. Not selling it. I'm not sure why they have it listed still. I am 100% certain that is my piece, though.

 

Odd, well it's got another 25 days to go before the auction. Perhaps whoever listed it will pull it if they've given it to you instead.

Sadly the person on the board who was an expert in Italian marks passed away. Hopefully someone familiar will know. There was another figure of Europa and the Bull posted some time ago but the photos are gone and it had a different mark. Don't remember what it looked like exactly.

https://www.antiquers.com/threads/german-porcelain-capital-m-or-w-mark-europa-w-bull.33444/

 

Oddly enough, this piece is listed on invaluable.com as Ludwigsburg. They don't show the mark but claim it has the blue, interlocking Cs. There are a few slight color variations between this piece and mine, but the mold is exactly the same. I believe they date this piece to the late 19th century. Strange how the two molds could be identical but presumably used by two different manufacturers (possibly three if you consider the Meissen version of this). A bit of a mystery for sure.

 

I thought I'd put those found online in one spot. I think the first and second "Dresden Volkstedt" are the same but are from different sites and seem to be the same as the "Capodimonte" last one. The Ludwigsburg piece has links to the original auction house also but it has no additional photos of the mark.

https://pirate-chest.com/products/19c-dresden-volkstedt-figurine-vase-europa-and-bull


https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/86288759_19c-dresden-volkstedt-figurine-vase-europa-and-bull


"Ludwigsburg"
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...orcelain-group-of-europa-and--18-c-67b4cc2a44
http://www.martelmaidesauctions.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=F90007++++18+&refno=40140997


"Capodimonte"
https://www.bidsquare.com/online-au...onte-europa-and-the-bull-figural-group-888841

 

Perhaps the sculptor sold "master" molds to several different companies? Or older, worn molds were retired, then acquired and reproduced by other companies, and can be identified by a loss of details in the pour? Not sure how all of that worked, just thinking outside the mold.

 

I'd already have been suspicious when seeing "Dresden Volkstedt".
Volkstedt was part of Rudolstadt and has nothing to do with Dresden.
eventually Aelteste Volkstedter Porzellanmanufaktur made these as well.
that subject was so widespread and copyrights rather soft...

https://www.google.ch/search?source...HbltBmgQsAR6BAgCEAM&biw=1184&bih=527&dpr=1.62