Ashtray and cup (goblet)

Dear members, a friend of mine asked me to identify those items and what to do with them

I have several questions

1. What are those items?
2. Are those items any important, do they posses any value?
3. If yes, are there any resources where I can appraise them?

(I was going to ask for an approximate price here but not sure if rules allow it)

P.S. It looks like the ashtray is from some kind of a British golf club and was made in 1905

The cup looks like used to belong to some estate owner and was made during the civil war

You are welcome to PM me if have any further questions

Thank you very much for your kind replies

Mikhail

 

This was interesting , no marks on the cup? It could be a civil war item if the dates are correct , wich would increase value .
http://mcnabsisland.ca/roderick_hugonin

 

The ashtray looks like it may be made from British Sterling Silver (check the hallmarks to be certain) and it looks like it's from a tournament at Lytham and St. Annes Gold Club in October 1905. Here's a link below with another item won at that golf course in April 1905 that should help with your questions.

http://www.pbagalleries.com/view-au...the-Lytham-and-St-Annes-Golf-Club-won-in-1905

Kevin

 

The ashtray is essentially, scrap silver and worth its weight in silver. Lytham St Annes is a well known golf club near Blackpool, this sort of item would be a permanent memento of winning a cup that the winner would only hold for a year unless they won it again. That's not very clear. You keep the ashtray, or whatever, but return the actual cup, or possibly the cup never leaves the club's trophy cabinet, but just has a new name added every year.

The reference to a Civil War is confusing, since it is a British chalice shaped cup and we have not had a civil war since the 1650s. Stuff made in Britain in the mid 19th C would of course have no relevance to the US civil war. There should be a hallmark on the cup somewhere. I can't see what it says under the owner's name.

The cup is almost certainly a trophy cup and assuming it is hallmarked, would be worth its weight in silver or a little more.
From the style I'd expect it to be a bit later than mid 19th C.

 

So those two items are not really museum type items?

P s the hallmark on the cup says something like R & JFB

 

Interesting pieces. If you click on "Full Image" after you have uploaded your pictures, they will post as large photos inside the text which makes it easier for folks to see. Also when posting something with hallmarks, try to get a close-up shot showing the mark.

You are correct, the people who post here don't give values. If the exact item was found on another site with a price range, that might be something that gets linked or referenced, or there might be the odd exception, but in general, no.

I'm not an expert in either, but the cup is so ornate, really gorgeous.

 

AF , when you google the name on the cup the only thing that popped up was an American ,a fairly prominent one at that .I just threw the civil war thing out there because it looks like the date is 1864 ? All conjecture of course , since its hard to read the inscription . I do think , since he did serve in the civil war , that it might add to the value if it can be verified it was his and given to him in 1864 , or so I thought . Perhaps it was a piece of English silver someone had engraved for him ?

 

If those are the letters that are engraved below Roderick's name on the front, they are not for the maker but for whoever presented this piece to him.

 

The Hugenin mentioned was a Canadian who left for England in 1865, and although militart service is listed, it would not have been in a United States war. He would hvce been in England when, by the looks of it, this cup was made, although if there is no British hallmark it is rather odd. Hallmarks can be small, discretely placed and well rubbed.

He was described as a sportsman so a sports trophy would not be unusual.

 

I don't know about in England but sporting trophies are certainly worth more than scrap value here in the US. The presentation cup would also have some value due to age and workmanship, particularly if sterling. Neither are museum quality items. You need to find some markings on the cup and take some good close-up pics of the ones on the front of the ashtray for further evaluation.

 

As others have said about the ashtray, the British hallmarks are for sterling, London city mark, and date letter for 1905. The maker was Ollivant & Botsford. This mark for them was registered in 1896.
http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/London-O.html#OT

--- Susan

 

Dear, members, I did take some closeups and uploaded them here

Please let me know if those closeups shed more light on those items, and if those items are worth more than just a weight

Thank you very much for your kind assistance

Mike

 

The hallmarks on the ashtray have already been discussed, and what you are showing of the cup is multiple shots of the engravings (the plumed helmet is a family crest) - these have nothing to do with the maker, you need to look over the piece for stamped marks, on a Canadian or American piece, would expect to see them under the base, sometimes even deep in the center where the base is attached to the cup. Agree with Brad that both have some value beyond the intrinsic, but the cup is particularly interesting...

~Cheryl

 

But there is a picture with the marks, Cheryl. Next to last in the slideshow - London, sterling, 1905, Olivant and Botsford's maker's mark (to go with the earlier picture showing their name written out + Manchester.

 

But those are the marks on the ashtray, visible in the previous images and already discussed...

~Cheryl

 

Duh! Not enough coffee. I just figured that since the majority of the new pictures seemed to be of the cup that that's what I was looking at.

 

I just took a picture of a bottom of a cup, does it have any meaning?

 

Finally, the hallmarks on the cup! They are hard to read. The lion is the British purity mark for Sterling.



To the left of the lion passant **may** be the 3 Turrets/Towers for possibly Newcastle????



The punch to the right of the lion is badly rubbed. It could be a date letter such as a "S," but that is pure speculation.



The punch on the opposite side of the lion could be about anything to these old eyes from a church bell to a Dutch maiden carrying buckets on her shoulders like on a yoke contraption, but not a man mowing. Ya'll do have to give me credit on a vivid imagination! Those marks are all facing outward.



If there is a mark in the middle, I can't make it out. Now that I was brave enough to voice my imagination, I want to see what others can conjure up!

--- Susan

 

Okie dokie! Thanks for working with those marks, Susan!

I agree that it looks like the Newcastle towers - at least more than any of the other choices.

Now here's the big question - which year is that S for?

IF it were the 1857 "S," (logical given the engraved dates on the outside) there should also be a Victoria head, which I don't see unless it's in the middle.

IF the S is in a shield cartouche instead of a square, that MIGHT mean the cup was actually made MUCH earlier, even earlier than the "monarch's head" duty requirement.

I can't make that last image into any kind of monarch's head, no matter how hard I try. So it could be some sort of maker's mark.

I would suggest that @Konan try to gently clean the underside of the cup so we can get a better look at the marks.

 

I think it's a 1757 Newcastle cup by John Langlands that was clobbered in 1864 for presentation (all the fancy decoration done a century after it was made)...

~Cheryl