Chinese Cloisonne Vase

I usually avoid buying these because I have no clue how to tell if they were made yesterday or a long time ago. They may show some surface wear and signs of usage on the inside but that does not help me a lot.
Any general rules in dating cloisonne and suggestions on the age of this one?
Thanks

 

Someone told me just recently that the blue bottom means it's recent.

 

I'm inclined to think that the toleration of poor enamelling in some of the fields would indicate the same thing. It is not as bad as some for this and it does have a relatively complex design.

 

Thanks for the replies. I would have to disagree about that the enameled base is a sign of the piece being recent. I am pretty sure there are a lot of late 1800's vessels with blue or other colored enamels on the bottoms. I don't know if the earlier period pieces was not made that way. The enamel on the base was needed to strengthen the copper base during the high temperature firing in the kiln.
But I think I've heard before something about the pieces with brass base being of better quality. Will have to research more on the matter.

What do you mean by poor enameling? If not wrong,it is more common to see older pieces with spotty coloring and pitting on the enamels, resulting from firing temperatures, rather than on newer ones.

What bothers me is that the gilding is too shiny and the old pieces should have some worn offs.

So, I guess I will have to do a little bit more research to figure was it made yestarday, 70's, 50's, early 1900's, late 1800's....

 

I was also wondering if the stepped bases on the vases were common for certain period or they have been made this way during different periods.

 

"Someone" once told me that Chinese cloisonne on a copper base is generally older than on a brass base. No idea if that is correct. The enameling is not bad on this one -- I've seen way sloppier stuff.

 

I am not even sure if that is copper or brass. Very often they will use copper and then gild it.
There may be some truth in what some one told you but I find it hard to find sources clarifying the matter. And then what does it mean generally older. Like brass is 20th century and copper 19th or brass is 19th and 20th and copper 18th and older?
Also, is it possible they used brass and/or copper at the same periods, choosing one instead of another for whatever reason?

 

Actually pitting comes more from impurities in the enamel than from firing temperature. I can duplicate those pits, and have on occasion , by getting a little flake-off from the copper into the enamel. Way too easy to fake to be used as a judge of age.

(The black edge to the red circle in the 4th picture could be color burn due to over firing - red is the hardest color to fire multiple times without burning.)

 

My best guess would be Chinese, 1970s-1980s, based on items I bought in the 80s and the great info on this site...
http://www.idcloisonne.com/id33.html

The turquoise blue bottom was typical at that time, but also was used in earlier periods. I don't know when it was first used.

I actually thought my vases were made in Japan until I saw similar items on that site.

 

The piece is definitely Chinese and new; likely from the 80's. Much of the really good quality antique (150 - 300 year old) Chinese Cloisonne is now impossible to find, especially on ebay. Chinese nationals snap up the really good stuff before you will even get the chance. You really need to examine and handle the older quality Chinese pieces to know what to look for - there is no real formula for this - you just know it when you see and touch it. I am fortunate that my mother collected early Chinese cloisonne, some of which is exceptional and some of which is what I consider "above average" for genuine antique pieces. However, I would say that I only have about 10 pieces of truly exceptional Chinese Cloisonne.

Japanese Cloisonne is a bit easier, for me, to understand and collect. I typically look for Japanese Cloisonne made from the late 1800's to the 1920's, possibly into the early 30's. However, with Japanese cloisonne, what most serious collectors today are hunting for are pieces exhibiting exceptionally fine detail and exceptional artistry. To me, it makes no difference if the piece is signed; in fact, I prefer unique, highly detailed unsigned pieces which showcase the talent of the artist who made it.

Much of the really fine Japanese pieces were made in the early 1900's when the government was incubating the cloisonne industry to market and sell exceptional pieces globally to fund imperial Japan. The older Japanese pieces - pre-1880's, while interesting from a historical perspective, are often less valuable because the work is inferior - basically, poorer copies of the exceptional Chinese cloisonne artists that came before the Meiji period. It wasn't until just after the turn of the century that artists like Namikawa Yasuyuki and others were pushing the boundaries of the cloisonne art form in a hotly competitive environment. Interestingly, in the 1970's (when my mother was accumulating cloisonne) these pieces were considered "too new" and did not then have the collectability that they do today.

 

Siden, great info... thanks. And welcome.