Help researching family from civil war era TN & age of painting

Discussion in 'Art' started by tyeldom3, Dec 12, 2015.

  1. verybrad

    verybrad Well-Known Member

    This is a still life and certainly painted with oils. It is a rather odd composition and I am not really sure what is being depicted. The bucket seems out of place in the composition. I think the glassware is consistent with the age or even older.
     
  2. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    Could it be a grain bucket....next to glasses filled with a fine brew ??
     
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  3. verybrad

    verybrad Well-Known Member

    Oil paints, if completely dry, are pretty inert. They wouldn't necessarily catch fire or bubble and discolor due to moderate heat alone. Like most anything, they will burn upon exposure to enough heat. If the face of the painting were facing away or somehow protected from the direct heat, I wouldn't expect it to combust right away. I would expect to see more scorching on the backside of the canvas if exposed directly to high heat and flames. The localized burning on the stretcher is why I conjectured about exposure to a burning timber or such. It seems that the high heat source would need to be pretty localized and direct to see the type of burning we are seeing.
     
  4. verybrad

    verybrad Well-Known Member

    I had considered that but a grain bucket wouldn't necessarily be associated with a brew or wine that is ready to drink. It would be used earlier in the brewing process. Might there be some German brew-houses that serve beer in buckets? Seems like I remember something about this during Octoberfest celebrations. I know some modern celebrations do this but not sure if this is an old tradition or not.
     
  5. SBSVC

    SBSVC Well-Known Member

    My late mother-in-law often talked about her Bavarian father. I distinctly remember her story about how, as a child, he used to carry an empty pail down to the local Biergärten and bring home beer for the family's meal.

    Could that be the significance of the bucket here? (Though that's an awfully big bucket!)
     
  6. tyeldom3

    tyeldom3 Well-Known Member

    Wow, you all are great and you bring up so many fine points. Thank you Komokwa, Brad and SBSVC!!
    This morning I placed the canvas back over the frame and lined up the nails with the holes on the upper part, and I can now better see what happened. The top of the painting still has the overhang piece of canvas on the top. The sides and bottom do not. The bottom right corner of the frame is burned on the bottom, and I didn't notice that part before, I thought it was only on the back side. It looks like the bottom right corner of the canvas was trimmed where it was probably burned, and it looks like the trimming was done long ago, because there is no even cuts now, just age related fraying of the canvas.
    So maybe the fire started underneath where the painting was hanging and burned that bottom right side and the back area, before someone was able to move it, or something like that, IDK?
    The scene going on in the painting is a mystery to me as well, and thank you all for your take on it. How interesting about the bucket and it's possibilities! What are the glasses next to the wine looking glasses, the ones that are just sort of straight and round?
    Here's a few pics from this morning, sorry they're not too great, it was very overcast. The last one is the back side.
    DSCN7893.JPG DSCN7894.JPG DSCN7895.JPG DSCN7896.JPG DSCN7897.JPG DSCN7898.JPG
     
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  7. GaleriaGila

    GaleriaGila Hola, y'all!

    I like the pail-holds-beverage with glasses nearby, some of which hold the pail-beverage, some hold something else. That's the only connection I can think of between pail and glassware. Well, I can think of other possibilities but they are all WEIRD!
    What a good mystery!
     
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  8. verybrad

    verybrad Well-Known Member

    Getting a pail of beer at the local pub is the origin of a growler. These pails had lids on them for obvious reasons. This looks more like a farm pail.
     
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  9. komokwa

    komokwa The Truth is out there...!

    Ummm...with the damage that localized I'm thinking it was a slow burn, as maybe someone moved a candle to close to the wall where the painting was hanging....and it took a while before someone noticed it was being scorched .....rather than say...a full blown room fire..!
    IMHO...
     
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  10. Mark London

    Mark London Well-Known Member

    Has anyone considered the possibility that the label is just an attempt to create value for an otherwise worthless item? There seem to have been several Secretaries of State during the Confederancy, none of whom were named Kennedy.
     
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  11. tyeldom3

    tyeldom3 Well-Known Member

    Umm yes....that's why I posted for help here. To try and see if any of the information could be proven.
     
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  12. tyeldom3

    tyeldom3 Well-Known Member

    Oh and thanks for calling my item worthless, that's oh so kind of you.
     
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  13. GaleriaGila

    GaleriaGila Hola, y'all!

    Oh, I think he was just brainstorming, tye. :) Sorry if I'm butting in!
     
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  14. Mark London

    Mark London Well-Known Member

    Perhaps worthless was a bit harsh, but the point is that there are certain sellers who try to create an impressive story to add value. The whole story about the civil war and the provenance might be complete fiction.
     
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  15. Ladybranch

    Ladybranch Well-Known Member

    Like the others I couldn't find any of Jefferson Davis' cabinet members with a name similar to Kennedy or from Franklin. Also I checked the Secretaries of State for the actual states of TN, KY and VA with no luck. The surname Kennedy has been spelled in a variety of ways in the 1600, 1700s and the 1800s. Examples are Kennady, Kenady, Kenadie, Cannady, etc...

    I even checked Lincoln's cabinet members for such a name - no luck. Some may be wondering why I would check the Lincoln's cabinet, the town of Franklin is more or less in the middle of Tennessee. No doubt there were many from that area that supported the Union. Even though Tennessee seceded, it was a divided state. The east side of the state sympathies were with the Union and the west side for the Confederacy. The eastern 1/2 of the state tried to seceded from the state of TN after TN joined the Confederacy. The eastern side wanted to form a new state to rejoin the Union. They partition the legislature in Nashville to secede, but were turned down. The legislature quickly sent Confederate troops to east TN to prevent it from seceding.

    Tennessee is a good example of brother fighting brother. DH's ancestry was split during the CW. His father's maternal side fought for the Confederacy and his paternal side fought for the Union. One of his father's maternal ancestors was a sister or cousin of the Alexander H. Stephens of GA, Vice President of the Confederacy. ( I haven't proven this connection yet.) One of DH's great-great grandfathers who was in the Confederate army, died during the CW from disease. At least 2 of his paternal gg uncles fought on the Union side.

    --- Susan
     
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  16. tyeldom3

    tyeldom3 Well-Known Member

    Thank you so much Susan how interesting! That is a great history lesson and thanks for your time and checking into it.:)
     
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  17. KingofThings

    KingofThings 'Illiteracy is a terrible thing to waist' - MHH

    Have to put that beer somewhere after being processed?
    That your 'WEIRD' point G? ;)
     
  18. KingofThings

    KingofThings 'Illiteracy is a terrible thing to waist' - MHH

    It's sad that a great many actually died from other than fighting whether imprisoned or not. :(
    Not unlike our Revolution. :(
    ~
    I have some interesting and enlightening old Civil War items/books and what is shocking is now many simply disappeared during a battle.
    This is likely both that their bodies were destroyed beyond comprehension and others who deserted.
    ~
    I wish you all the luck to determine lineage and such!
    I would be pleased to hear how that progresses. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
  19. Ladybranch

    Ladybranch Well-Known Member

    From an interest generated by this thread, I just watched "The Battle of Franklin" that was Episode 4 in the Series Civil War Combat (America's Bloodiest Battles) first aired in 2003 on the Military History channel. My what a bloody battle this was! Over 7,000 Confederates were killed and around 2,000 Union. General Hood, the Confederate Commanding General, claimed it was a Confedrate victory. Within a short time after the battle he had forced to resign with his reputation in ruins. Anyways, I listened carefully for any mention of Kennedy - no luck. The only local names or houses mentioned was the Carter family and the Cairnton Mansion. Both those houses are open today.

    Carter House:
    http://www.boft.org/carter-house.htm
    Cairnton Mansion/Plantation:
    http://www.boft.org/carnton.htm
    Homepage of the Battle of Franklin Trust that probably sponsors these historic homes:
    http://www.boft.org

    The same episode will be repeated at least once more today at 1:00 pm CST on the Military History channel via xfinity. I have no idea where else in the country it is being televised. Here are Military History channel website, etc...

    http://tvgo.xfinity.com/watch/Civil...pisodes#filter=tv&episode=6381849549243591112
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0275265/
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_History_(TV_network)

    --- Susan
     
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  20. KingofThings

    KingofThings 'Illiteracy is a terrible thing to waist' - MHH

    Supposedly Abraham Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy.
     
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