Featured Very Excited, Not Sure Where to Put this...18thC Mystery boxes?

We are ALL sitting on the edge of our seats !!!!

 

Okay hear me out, a bit far fetched here...but could the square have been some sort of mini sun dial of sorts? The gold bit of this one reminds me of the bit of metal top of it...

Probably not, as the bit on mine wants to turn rather than lift, and something goes on top of it..but still.

 

There was certainly something screwed down there. A sundial makes as much sense as anything else.

 

Rachel I'm SO EXCITED FOR YOU!!!

These are really, really beautiful even if they turn out to be paste (and I don't think they are). The paintings and the detail are so lovely. What an amazing find. If your expert doesn't come up with answers it'll drive us all to distraction too!

 

What an amazing find! And for such a steal. Many happy hours of research to be had! Fascinating clues to unravel

 

I would think the sundial is certainly a possibility. The curved metal arm looks like all that is left of some kind of mechanism. I'm sticking with my first thought of it being an automaton clock! There must have been a mechanism to spin the crown too. I also think it could be as old as late 17th century - if so, wow!
Probably totally wrong but it's fun speculating!
Can't wait to hear what your antiquarian has to say!

 

I'm still out so will be brief, but update! Surprisingly, the antiquarian wasn't all that enthusiastic. He said since the obelisk so damaged collectors won't be interested. He did say that the crowns weren't french. It's a cool piece but not precious stones (didn't test), and wasn't a 'piece importante'.

Next went to the gold store to test/sell the tesbih beads (more on that later), but she directed mento a jewelry store to test the stones on the boxes. Walked over there, tested them.

Every single white stone is a diamond, and the 'glass' on the pyramid's paintings are white sapphires.

She doesn't think the red or green are stones, but probably paste (again, not tested, said she couldn't with her tool), the pearls are real, and the crown is probably set in silver according to the era. Seemed knowledgeable and excited! Asked to keep them for research but since I don't live close I let her take photos instead and we exchanged emails.

2 EUROS PEOPLE

 

Thank you for the update!
The antiquarian probably had in mind your pieces will be for sale (one day) and kept poker face on them... It is obvious they are damaged, but I would think he could, as an expert, at least put a date and origin on them
As to precious stones... If WE had diamonds and rubies in mind only from pics, he deliberately wanted to make you believe you have only a cool piece of no interest for collectors
For me, not a person to trust!

 

Ditto what kyra said.

Makes sense, not a fleur de lys in sight.
I wouldn't be surprised if the two were born close together, meaning the obelisk box could be German as well.

 

I'm late to this party, but OMG....what a find!
They are fabulous!
I'll be following this thread with interest!

 

I'm in agreement that the "expert" isn't to be trusted. He could be trying to see if you'd sell it for cheap, or he could be thinking more about BIG collectors (and he'd be right about the damage probably) and not the small collectors (clearly, we're ALL interested!). I'm not really surprised he didn't offer a lot of detail as part of their business is appraisal, so you have to pay-to-play. I don't know how he expected you to follow through with such a lackluster initial review, instead of just telling you their fees though. I'm baffled that he thought the stones weren't worth testing. Really odd.

Too bad the jeweler didn't have a better tester. You may have to call around? Sapphire seems odd to me for a large piece like that, and if she doesn't have a better tester, I wonder if they're just testing close to quartz?

What I really want to know is what's missing or what they were part of!

 

Okay, after poking around a bit, I'm gonna agree that these look like pieces of clocks circa 1550-1650? The Louvre has a lot of beautiful boxes, but only those attached to clocks are in brass in this style of etching with lil feet, etc. It's possible the square one was also a presentation box of sorts, since clocks sometimes came as sundials, compasses, etc. It might also be possible that the fabric was added later...

Top of the square looks like it probably had a dome or similar mount protecting either parts of the clock or a bell for the alarm or chime. That bent metal piece sure looks like the piece that ratchets a wheel...think it's called a click?

The "steeple" definitely has etchings you would associate with time (changing of seasons). Maybe it housed a bell...especially if the fabric was added later?

Some clocks at the Louvre that have etchings and whatnot that remind me of these.

 

Here's something similar to first box with sundial. You'll want to compare measurements and note date.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auc...-gilt-brass-horizontal-table-clock-with-alarm

Debora

 

Nothing like a bit of dubious activity to spice up life lol! I had thought I'd made it clear I wanted an evaluation/appraisal before meeting, and asked for prices, but with the language difference I wasn't able to communicate it effectively in person. I wanted it authenticated in case I did sell, but the most he gave me was neither are french, and he didn't disagree to 17th century.

The lady who tested the gems was SO nice, and another member of staff and a previous customer oogled them as they deserved. Definitely will return to her if need be!

Thats true, and not something I'd noticed. I assumed that because of the minute scale the representations were not as detailed. To be honest the crown of pearls and diamonds is far more french looking than german imo, but I only have wikipedia images to go off of.

Anddd we're back on the clock theory! Thank you so much for looking! I had looked at clocks before, but I searched 18th century ones and was looking for clocks that had boxes on them, not thinking they could really be the clock themselves. Great idea about the cloth inside, it definitely could not be original, even if 200 years old. Rather makes me wonder if there's a makers mark underneath, not that I'll be finding out!

Amazing that there are so many similarities, brass, identical feet, style, decor etc.

I'd like to message Sotheby's about this, but for a valuation they want a category...the problem is we only have theories!

 

Make a guess re category. Sure you won't be the first.

Debora

 

17th century clock bits set with diamonds...you betcha they'll be interested.

 

Anytime I'm trying to track down a time period on a legitimate antique piece I try to find a museum that has a good online collection, then I keep the query simple and just scroll lolll. For this I tried V&A (because theirs is such a thorough database) and The Louvre with just "box" or "boîte" and then I checked clocks. I tried a simple search of German museums and the Hermitage (since Catherine hoovered up a lot of stuff from all over Europe), but their sites either don't have databases or are a bit of a pain to quickly search...still an option for more in-depth looking. I was just lazy lol.

Textiles can last a surprisingly looooong time if in the right conditions, and the inside of a box is a good way to preserve them. So I wouldn't rule out originality without more research, but if they're old enough then of course mending or repurposing should be considered!

Clocks could be very small. The cylinder one above is only 9cm/3.5in and I think I saw others much smaller in the Louvre collection. There are other brass ones like the above links, I just linked a few. The "steeple" one definitely looks like the crowning piece of a bigger clock though.

 

Yeaaaaaah, the medal in that wiki with "Christina of Sweden as Minerva holding an olive branch in her left arm and grasping the tree of knowledge with her right hand." sure looks like what the painted lady on the box is supposed to represent...Maybe also an Owl in her lap, which is Minerva's bird?

I might be stretching things here, so anyone else jump in who knows anything about arms and monograms, but I found it interesting that one of the men in the Imperial peace delegation was Johann Maximilian von Lamberg and his family arms includes a crown that looks a lot like the one on the square box. For all I know, it's a crown style for others as well. I just found that intriguing. I could suss out a M or L in that monogram if I tried, but that could be the pareidolia talking lol.

I would look at more Austrian/HRE arms and coronets but I'm getting cross-eyed.

 

Sorry @mirana, I was busy jumping down the rabbit holes you provided and didn't reply! Thank you so much for your research and tips!

I'm always one for stretching, and I do see the resemblance on the coat of arms! My mother does see a J in the monogram haha. Interesting he was a count as well! That could tie in to AJ's suggestion for the coronet on the pillar box, an Erlauchtkrone. In Germanic circles the title Erlauch was used to address counts....

Also, as to the actual function of the box, I'm feeling like this is a pretty good match:


This is a bit early for the period we're discussing, but its German, brass, a box, and has the right feet.
Also check out the second photo with the mechanism! Some of those arms look pretty much the same as that bit of metal on my box's lid.