Featured Baroque style porcelain snuff box, gold Ludwigsburg mark

Hi, I came to the group whilst searching online where I found a board thread discussing Ludwigburg marks. Please see: https://www.antiquers.com/threads/19th-century-ludwigsburg-or-not.51333/

This is a sweet little German snuff box with puce hand painted decoration and a gold overglaze Ludwigsburg mark to the base. It measures 5.5cm c 3cm x 3cm approx and was found in Newark, UK. The hinge is sound, the lid shuts with a pleasing snap, there is a tiny chip on the back edge, its been gilded, it's the same gilding as the factory mark, so it could have been a factory touch up? Is this a kidney shape? Age? Any thoughts?

https://imgur.com/a/VEEdRNw

 

Lovely little thing. I cant say Ive seen one with that shape.

 

Welcome to Antiquers, @Durisdeer !
It's a pretty little box... The thread you linked gives specific information about the marks, as found in reference sources. Did you get an impression of age through comparing the mark on yours? Can you post a photo of the mark on yours? Thanks! That will help others (probably not me, since I have no reference sources of this type.)

 

Thanks so much friends for your kind comments and warm welcome. Hope these photos shed further light. I don’t know a lot about this maker. I just have a bird charger with the interlocking C’s mark. Does this look like a spurious mark? There certainly seems to be evidence of wear on the bottom. I purchased this as a gift for my niece. Cheers!

 

I have a large book on 18th century porcelain boxes, and it has a small section on Ludwigsburg, but it has let me down. Marks on many of the pieces shown are recorded, but not the Ludwigsburg examples. This shape is not shown, but Ludwigsburg did produce some unusual shapes. They did use gilded copper and gilded silver mounts. Examples in this book show similar decoration: main image on top, simplified landscape on front, strewn flowers on sides. Snuff boxes were very subject to the fashion of the time, so that might support an 18th century attribution, but I doubt the style of decoration would be limited to one maker.

What bothers me about the mark is that the crown is not like the crowns in either PM&M or Rontgen, nor are the initials.

It's certainly 18th century style, but I think it's going to take someone with hands on experience to tell you whether it's actually 18th century, or Ludwigsburg.

It's a pretty box. I'd like to think it's 18th century.

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to look at this and compose such a thoughtful reply.

I thought some of the North American members might find this PBS Antiques Roadshow discussion on a spurious gold mark interesting. I apologize, in advance, if some members have trouble viewing.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/s...praisals/19th-c-porcelain-box-urn--200205A28/

 

Frankenthal
https://www.antiquers.com/threads/need-help-for-a-figurine-sign.54176/

 

Yes! Thank you so much. Were most or all authentic Frankenthal marks in underglaze blue?

Frankenthal porcelain marks
Frankenthal porcelain marks changed significantly given the short life of manufacturer. Initially a “PH”, it had developed into a lion emblem by 1755. The most well recognised mark of Frankenthal is the crown with “CT” beneath it (for Charles Theodor, Prince-elector and Count Palatine of Bavaria, 1724-1799, who owned the factory at the time). Yet for the final few years Frankenthal was operating, the manufacturer was represented by the initials “VRF”. The frequency of changes is likely due to the numerous changes of director.

Source: Invaluable

 

I have no idea. I could only tell it would possibly be Frankenthal after a google search (looked for "crowed JC"/ "crowned FC" / "crowned TC"), finding a site where someone was asking about this mark (thinking it was Tiffany & Co), and another answered it was Frankenthal. So then I googled for "Frankenthal mark" and one of the hits was the post from this site
For the real intel, we'll have to wait for the real specialists

Found this thread:
https://www.antiquers.com/threads/f...entifying-this-crown-mark-cherub-plate.63092/
with identical letters, but with a different crown. Two of the replies there:

"It looks like the Frankenthal mark but it’s usually blue."


and

"The "c" in a Frankenthal mark is usually much larger, and the crown is a different shape.. I'm guessing the CT monogram is for the company's patron, the Elector Carl Theodore.
It's a beautiful plate, but the mark is questionable."
(sounds familiar, @moreotherstuff? )

 

The big book is not helping. (Porzellandosen des 18.Jahrhunderts, Barbara Beaucamp-Markowsky) There are more entries for Frankenthal, but the emphasis is on the decoration - modelling, image sources and style, painters, color palettes, like that. The few pictures of marks are those on the metal mounts, not the porcelain. The book is in German, which is a struggle, but I'm not seeing words that indicate maker's marks on the porcelain.

The mark does look more like Frankenthal than Ludwigsburg, but the fact that it's overglaze and gold, and that the C is smaller than the T does leave room for doubt.

I have no hands on experience. The little I know comes from books and online.

Is the decoration overglaze?

 

Hi,
I really appreciate your doing this research and checking the big book. I'm sorry, I don't happen to have this in hand as.it is in transit from England to Denver, Colorado as we write. Looking at the photos, it seemed that the decoration might be overglaze? Any other thoughts? Also, what are member thoughts about the quality of the decoration?