HUGE carved wood chinese emporer and empress

sorry if this is in the wrong category but wood / carvings seem to be the only topic that doesn't have it's own section.... I picked these up yesterday - they are very large - 21" tall X 12" deep x 9" wide - they are really really heavy - no scale but my guess is about 25 lbs each - I mean heavy! they are each one piece carvings - from one piece of wood... I did a quick google image search and found nothing even remotely similiar... I think these would be "seated emporer and empress" together they look like they might be approaching a kiss LOL - appreciate any insights and observations - advanced thanXies

 

They are Burmese/Myanmarese, and not imperial. They are similar figures mirroring each other, so they are not male and female. Looks to me like both are male.

They could be recent copies of guardian "Nats", meant to be seated on either side of a gate or door, for instance.

 

Many topics don't have their own section, but this forum is as good as any.
Not that these figures are antique, but a lot of items in "Antiques Discussion" aren't.

 

thanX so much for your help - I did some quick reading - it is suggested that they are Buddist and the mirroring types are "guardians who trap and possess the soul and force to do their bidding" -sound like black magick...

 

So a conspiracy, rather than a kiss. You are planning to sell them, aren't you?

 

I'd never heard of Buddhist black magic before ?

 

yes - my plan is to turn them over - I have $90 into the pair - my asking price will be $245 with a take price of $200…

all religions have a dark side - whether it be Christianity / Devil - Judaism / Qabalah etc…

 

Nats aren't Buddhist as such. They are a tradition of Myanmar, but have nothing to do with the teachings of the Buddha.

The devil is not the dark side of Christianity. The devil has evolved into a personification of evil in several faiths.
The dark side of Christianity are things like the Inquisition, witch hunts, church-endorsed and church-enforced slavery, etc.

Qabalah is a mix of several esoteric systems, in part based on the Jewish Kabalah. The Kabalah is Jewish mystic teaching, nothing dark about that.
Christianity also has mysticism btw, important names like St Francis and St Theresa of Avila were mystics.

 

I have studied the Qabalah to some extent - “the tree of life” is mirrored below Malkuth - there is indeed a dark side - and I would disagree that the devil isn’t the dark side of Christianity - there are satanist and luciferians everywhere who embrace these dark practices - mysticism always has a light and dark side - white magic and black magick - the dieties are interchangeable but there is always two paths (or more) of intentions - I might butcher the name but one of the dark dieties of Buddhism is Khala - I haven’t studied the practice but it comes up in other studies often -

for the record I am neither Christian or Jew - I am pasty white Caucasian who is pagan

 

the name is Kali

 

I think you mean the Kabalah?
Malkuth is the material world, and it is not emenated from God. So it isn't Godly, so to speak.
There are different ways of viewing that material world. If you follow dualism in religion, and think of the spiritual world, emanated from God as pure and good, dualism can lead you to believe that the material world is dark.
That doesn't mean that the Kabalah is the dark side of Judaism.

The concept of the devil is older than Christianity, and the devil is a concept in several religions, including Christianity.

Those people aren't Christians, nor do they call themselves that.

Mysticism has no dark side, it is purely the relationship between a person and the divine.

Mysticism and magick are two entirely different things. When magic or magick enters mysticism, mysticism stops being mysticism.

Kali is Hindu, connected with Saivism, the cult of Shiva. There is an overlap between certain aspects of Kali and Himalayan Goddesses though.
Pure Buddhism doesn't have Gods and Goddesses, but as in Myanmar, Himalayan Buddhism has adopted elements of older local religons.

I am from the mystic-philosophical side of Kejawen, and my specialties during my theology study were both mysticism and Shamanism.

Being Kejawen I know the difference between real mysticism and so-called "mysticism" that is adulterated with white magic and dark magick very well, and I will always defend the purity of real mysticism, regardless of the religion it is connected with.

 

I wouldn't get into an argument with @Any Jewelry about religion.........

 

not an argument - a discussion - there are few things in stone concerning religion as it is all carried out by the will of the parishioners- I am just in the belief that there is nothing pure once the human element is added to the equation- there is no pure human - thus anything they dabble in is contaminated with their own perspectives even if their intentions are good - and there are no pure dieties either - they all have their shortcomings and faults - most very glaring…

one’s truth is only their truth

 

one’s truth is only their truth

if so...... then truth loses all meaning....and is barely an opinion.

 

When it comes to religion, nearly everything is "set in stone", and parishioners have very little to say about it. Religions are not democratic, and most religions have a very detailed worked out system of belief and worship, as well as an often sophisticated legal system to enforce it.

Religions were founded to control spirituality, and to concentrate worship in specific areas (churches, temples, etc) and have power over those areas. So they need things to be set in stone, sometimes literally. From there new cults were founded, split up, prophets came, etc etc.
This is not my opinion, it is simply the history of religion.
The truth of a religion is not a single person's truth, it is the way it is defined by that particular religion. Neither you nor I can reinvent the Hindu definition of Kali. Besides, Kali is much too complicated. Nor can we import her into another religion, because what Kali is, is indeed in stone. The same for your other claims. Things are as they are. Frankly, I don't think it is right to make unfounded claims about darkness in a religion or tradition that is not your own and you probably don't understand.

The concentration of worship wasn't always a result of desire for power though. It often started out as a practicality.
For instance, if there was a well with water that healed certain ailments, people would gather there. Not knowing the cause, they explained it the only way they knew how, by using their imagination. Over time such a well would become a place of pilgrimage, and food and shelter for a growing number of people had to be organized. Such a situation would lead to the beginning of an organised religion.
But people being people, that usually got out of hand. (Now that is my personal opinion.)

An important thing to remember is that there is a huge difference between religion and spirituality, and between religion and mysticism. Neither spirituality nor mysticism are tied to a religion, in fact most religions frown upon mysticism. Again, not my personal opinion, but fact.
Just an example, Kejawen is not a religion, it is a syncretic spiritual tradition. Practitioners are spiritual, and some are mystics. They are also free to adhere to a religion, should they wish to. (As an aside, under Indonesian state law they are obliged to be registered in a religion.)

That said, religious people can be spiritual (I hope they are), and some of them can be mystics.

Exactly, and that is what the Kabalah means by Malkuth. The fact that the Kabalah points the finger on that, doesn't mean that Kabalah is the dark side of Judaism. It just means it is correct in saying the manmade world isn't pure.

In my opinion, deities are a human concept. A translation and explanation of things people perceive and experience.
If deities have shortcomings and faults, it is because human beings thought up myths around the deities they conceived. Not all deities have shortcomings and faults btw.

However, deities are not the same as the divine.

 

"Just an example, Kejawen is not a religion, it is a syncretic spiritual tradition. Practitioners are spiritual, and some are mystics. They are also free to adhere to a religion, should they wish to."

Well, @Any Jewelry, I have learned my something new from you today. I have never heard of Kejawen! I have always thought that "organized" religions are just vernacular ways to connect/pray to/praise the ineffable, the divine. But your explanations of religiosity, spirituality and mysticism are very interesting!

 

I just think you are misunderstanding my thoughts concerning the “dark side “ - when I say dark I don’t necessarily mean evil - where there is light there is dark… when I mentioned the Qabalah (it is indeed a proper spelling with both a Q or a K ) being mirrored under Malkuth and you asserted that Malkuth is the material world - yes it’s the root chakra of the tree - but the ENTIRE tree is mirrored under Malkuth not just Malkuth - there is a dark and light side to each sphere… just as the devil (Lucifer) Is not evil personified - there are light and dark sides to each entity- those dark sides deal with dark matter like death - disease - etc - the things to messy (and difficult) for the “feel good I am love Gods “ who let innocent children die painful deaths without explanation- and alas mysticism wouldn’t exist without seekers and practitioners - it would be unknown - thus it has to have human elements - whether you want to call it spirituality or religion doesn’t change that humans are invoking or evoking the elements with their own values morals and intentions - and now a days many with intentional malice - I believe they call the path “ chaos” -

in the end it doesn’t really matter if I buy into your view of purity or you buy into my beliefs otherwise - your truth is yours alone as is mine - the worlds greatest minds certainty can’t agree - we are no different - but I just wanted to clear the air concerning my use of dark - the intention wasn’t necessarily meant as evil -

 

I think your thoughts didn't make it all the way to your earlier posts, it happens sometimes. This mode of communication is not the best for making ourselves understood.
I understand what you are saying from a dualist viewpoint. Dualism isn't exactly my background, but obviously my theology study delved deep into it. Later studies and living in a Western culture also helped, but my own perception is more towards non-dualism.

I think many people think or hope that (a) God can and should intervene. Many others don't think of (a) God in that way though. Expectations versus simply being, I guess.

Mysticism may have seekers, but I doubt they'll get to where they want to be. It either hits you or it doesn't.

I don't know what you mean by practitioners. When you have one or more mystical experiences you contemplate on it, of course. Many mystics try to live in harmony with what they perceive to be important, but so do many non-mystics.

Mysticism as such doesn't, but its interpretation into a worldly context does. At least 99% gets lost in translation. Which is why many mystics don't talk about it. Others place it in the context of their culture and time.

I think you'll find I didn't express my view of purity in the sense of dark and light, or spiritual, religious or otherwise. I don't find it necessary to have a view.

I mentioned the purity of real mysticism, as in, mysticism without any other disciplines, techniques, etc mixed in. Just like a pot of pure blue paint without any yellow mixed in.
Some things can be purely what they are, and when something else is mixed in they stop being what they are. As simple as that.

Obviously, but that has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

They can't agree on what? I don't quite follow you.

That's OK, you expressed it differently at first, but it is clear now.

What is not clear is the "greatest minds can’t agree" statement. They probably can't agree on a lot of things, but what exactly do you mean?

 

ALERT...........
7
– Subjects we don’t discuss here

Basically it’s common sense. Just about every person on the planet has heard the saying – “never discuss politics and/or religion”. Why ? Because it starts fights, arguments and causes nothing but hate and discontent. If you wish to discuss politics and or religion, then go someplace else. We don’t allow it here.

our Mods always give us some latitude....& some wiggle room......
but before they shut this thread down.........let's agree to disagree...

& God Bless you, one and all !

 

You're right, komo.

I don't think there is anything to agree or disagree about when it comes to religion.
My issue is with unfounded claims and gross generalizations in general. That doesn't have to do with religion, but with lack of information and an inclination to generalize.

You may notice in my posts throughout Antiquers that I never judge religions or beliefs, dualist or otherwise. Nor do I make unfounded statements about beliefs, and there are reasons for that.
One reason is that I simply don't feel the need to. Another is that I respect that beliefs are important to people.
A very pressing reason at the moment is the safety of people who have sensitive backgrounds. And I would ask people to think about that aspect before they make random statements.
Remember the Dukun killings on Java, not too long ago. Those murdered Dukuns were regarded as "dark".
And think what could happen in the current climate in the West regarding the political situation in the world. There are some hotheads out there who are looking for a reason, just like on Java. This is a public forum, so anyone can read those random statements and think they are true.

And this is the last I will say about it.