Cameo Signature Help Needed

another possibility, Tratufi. a real italian word

Turtufi? I'm beginning to think that the 'r' step in front of the first 't' is really the back of an 'a' similar to the old german handwriting styles, so 'r a' rather than 'u r'. And the second 't' is an 'f' because it drops well down below the rest of the letters.

 

I'm bringing the OP cameo signature forward for easier comparison.

A bit hard to tell, but I'd say 1885 - 1914; pre- WWI.

Had not considered that possibility, was too bothered by their not being a double T, as so many Italian names end vowel TT vowel.

Think it's probably not, just because it would be the unusual Italian first name that started with that letter, while so many start with T or F (or L) & have seen enough Ts & Fs from the period to feel confident in recognizing them. Keep looking & trying things out.

I was noticing how the strong upstrokes go with an equally strong down stroke & was wondering if one or the other might be an f; think we can rule out their both being f.

I'm less persuaded by this, but welcome all suggestions. It's so hard once you think you see one thing to see it any other way. Which brings me to next post.

 

@Aquitaine Thank you so much for this. Forwarding the image again:





The shell of the last one is extremely thin, so the signature is necessarily scratched in very lightly. You can barely see it at all unless you tilt it just the right way to the light.

Yesterday won another piece with what I think is the same signature. However, it also appears very shallow & faint & seller photo barely picks it up. I was gambling it was a different cutter who has many of the same letters in his last name, but re-examining the photos after the excitement was over, realized it is more likely to be this one. Won't be sure until it gets here. The irony is that the other cutter, Michelini, is considered desirable because there is a record of him in tourist guides & exhibition catalogues, he's a known name. Unless this name can be properly deciphered & something, anything, can be found written about him, Michelini will always be more highly valued, even though this unknown is the superior artist. My new treasure:



Have been assuming this name, like the majority of them, is Italian. Now think there is some possibility it is French, and that what I have been seeing as 'occ' might be 'ou'. Might be. All thoughts welcome on this one too.

 

No, they do not. Can't tell you how many I've seen that appear refreshingly legible until you really try to read them.

Reverchon was born in 1829 & seems still to have been alive around 1900; I don't know whether or not he was active to the end of his days. The obverse of this cameo has appeared on the site before:

 

Your newest acquisition is also STUNNING.......and now I will go back to sleep !!!

 

Is the WL or HL part of the signature on the second one?

 

Is there a job title for people who cut cameos? Other than, you know, "cutter" "carver" "jeweler"?

 

Good question. I have searched high and low with a supposed name and cameo, but this has gotten me no where.

 

I believe it goes this way up & is either FH or TH:



Not infrequently, cameos have marks on the back that were not put there by the person who made it. Dealers' inventory numbers are common. These initials might have belonged to an owner, the jeweller from whom the owner bought the brooch, or the wholesale dealer who sold the cameo to the jeweller. Some sets of letters may be price codes. Some numbers may have been put there by pawn brokers. German hardstone cameos may have an assortment of marks with some scratched out; I hypothesize these are the products of workshops where more than one person works on a piece, with only the initials of the final hand being left uneffaced.

Since I have the advantage of having seen 4 or 5 cameos with this signature, none of the others with these additional initials, think it's fair to say they are not those of the cutter. Which takes us to...

 

I used the word 'cameist' one time in another thread & it met with approval. I did not invent it, promise. An old fashioned term. Those who make intaglios and/or cameos in the harder stones do so by grinding/engraving, not by chipping or scraping away at the material; they are known generally as gem engravers. Softer materials, such as shell & coral, are worked with little tools for scraping & gouging, more akin to sculpting. Those who work only in these materials are not accorded as much respect as those who do the more difficult work with more prized materials, & are referred to in English as cameo cutters.

You will notice that on the previous page, the Frenchman Reverchon signed himself as 'graveur'. If he had only made shell cameos, his name probably would not have been recorded. However, he was also a medalist, medalists often put their name or initials on their work, making them easier to study & write about. The go-to reference is this one, by Leonard Forrer, which came out in segments in Spink's Numismatic Circular before being printed as a multi-volume book:

 

"Cameist" is what I was thinking of, lol.

It never occurred to me that there would be different names dependent on the material. But it I get it.

It's all so very complicated.

I am really stuck on the second set of sigs in this thread -- the Not-Michelini series. Am I to understand that you believe the first letter is an initial and the surname starts with what I currently consider to be an "m"?

Also, any chance this person is German? Because I'm having trouble seeing the last two letters as anything other than "hr"...

 

I think the circled letter could be an "h"... apologies if that's already been said, I'm having trouble tracking.

 

Have been keeping my reading to myself, in an effort not to influence how others might see it, which is as T (or F) Mocchi. I don't know that the name is not German, although Germany is known for its lapidary work. They had large agate deposits, while the cameists of Naples & Rome had ready access to materials provided by the Mediterranean. The French did beautiful work in both, as well as in glass paste. Of course, people do not always live & work in the country where their surname originated. Luigi Michelini started in Rome, but moved to Paris & stayed there.

If the name ends in 'hr' what would you make of what comes before that?

That possibility has not been taken up already. It could be. If it is, what are the letters around it & how would you pronounce that part? In what language? In Italian you don't much see an h except after c or g to indicate the hard pronunciation. The name Chighi is an example.

 

I just used a lot of profanity aimed in your general direction. That "h" bit was everything I had on that one.



On the other one, I'm still working it. Wanted to check on the viability of a German name.

SIDEBAR: So far, my favorite option for this piece is "Smouha"... because SMOUHA, it's fun. (and it appears to be a legit name, MAYBE, from the Turkey/Syria/Iraq side of the globe).

 

Meant to say, lol. I already knew you thought Mocchi because of your file names.

Those of who live in the backwoods? Our so-called-highspeed internet don't always work so good and it's a particular problem with images on this forum. I always end up with only half the images loaded and the other half with the files names sitting there.

Which is one reason all my uploaded files names are TempXX.

 

You might say 'Mocchi' is my name for the name of this cameist. I don't know what the right name is, but have to use something to label files & keep them together & be able to find them.

Another one like that is 'Silz', because that is how it looks most often, but also as 'See', 'Sel' or Sll, which all seem to be abbreviations for a longer name that looks like it should be legible but I can never turn into anything that is both pronounceable & ever belonged to anyone in the history of human names.


My best guess, from where the majority of them turn up & the way they are set, is that this prolific cutter worked in England in the second half of the 19th century. Beyond that...?

 

In that last one? I see "Schmoll" with a swoop/flourish under the last bit.

It is a real name.

 

I have considered Schmolz, which is also a going concern as a name, but why shorten to Silz, a nickname? Maybe. But why then Sll, which is the second most common variant? The one shown immediately above has both the long form & the no-Z short form on it.



As has been said, they don't make it easy!

 

Had a thought based on the ambiguous look of the last letter of the full name, maybe the Hungarian
Schmolsz

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=qpIBAAAAQAAJ&dq="cameo" "schmoll"&pg=PP19#v=onepage&q&f=false