Ivory ( I believe) Chinese dragon ball and Bronze crab .

Hi guys & girls ,
I have this what I believe to be an Ivory Chinese dragon puzzle ball , my question is : is it Chinese? Is it old/antique.

The bronze crab:
I’m confident that it is bronze but is it an Antique? The detail is incredible, it has a makers mark which doesn’t look at all Asian to me .

 

Around here, size matters.

 

Thank you sir

 

My pronouns are 'she' & 'her'.

I can't say anything definitive about your 2 items, but my thoughts/observations are:

• The one photo is not adequate to make a determination about ivory. We are on the lookout for the telltale grain of ivory or the bubbles & seams that can appear on molded artificial material. I don't know if these were ever done in resin. The way it has yellowed is consistent with ivory, but some man made materials also yellow with time & handling. They can also be artificially aged.
• I would be wary about the crab (which I love, BTW). The Chinese are masters at making reproductions of their own antiquities as well as those of other countries, including Japan. The market is awash in boxwood netsuke & ojime that are copies of Japanese work, signed with Japanese names, & carved in China.

 

the ball is stunning....whether bone or ivory...?
the crab looks like a Meiji bronze,,,

https://www.artcurial.com/en/lot-crabe-en-bronze-japon-epoque-meiji-1868-1912-3930-16

.

 

The ball was sold to me as Ivory from an antique dealer ( he has appeared on TV many times ) it feels like Ivory and the weight feels right , there is no seem or anything to indicate it being plastic. The crab I’m a little more suspicious about ( given the mark doesn’t look Asian ) this was bought from an auction house whom described it as Chinese bronze crab .

 

It may just be the slightly blurry photo, but the carving on the ball does not appear as crisp as I would expect if it was genuine ivory.

This article explains that puzzle balls have also been made from "synthetic ivory" (a mixture of ground bone and resin), and resin alone.

https://www.puzzlemuseum.com/puzzles/ivory/puzzleball.htm

 

Looks to me like the crab may have been cast from life. Might we have a few more pics of it, please?

I have one quite similar, with a broken hind leg and no mark, but it was cast (from-life) in many pieces and soldered into a lifelike resemblance.

I take some pics & post them in the Metalwork forum.

 

Definitely ivory, 100% bet

 

here’s a photo taken outside this morning.

 

some outside photos…
I’ll add t the metalwork forum later.

 

that's not necessary once we have a lively discussion here already..

 

Love the crab even more in the new photos.

 

I played a practical joke with it on my 4 year old granddaughter by putting it by our pond , she was scared out of her skin ( not a way to build trust) I won’t be doing that again.

 

The mark looks very Asian to me, like a Chinese Zhuanshu mark, the style you see on Chinese seals.
Your crab is very nice, but doesn't have the finesse or expression of Meiji period crabs, and the bronze is a different colour. The mark is not like the ones on Meiji crabs either. Many Meiji period crabs are articulated btw.

With the Zhuanshu mark I think it is Chinese. Age, not a clue.

I saw a few bronze crabs crawling around Ali etc. Not as nice as this one, though.

 

It can be quite difficult to confirm ivory when it is intricately carved. You need to find flat surfaces, large enough and in the right orientation, to see the uniquely diagnostic "Schreger" lines. (Schreger lines are subtle, spiraling and intersecting lines, which are fine tubules that carry nutrients during the growth of the tusk.) If you cannot find Schreger lines, it does not necessarily prove that an object is not ivory, as they are sometimes difficult to see. But if you do see them, it is the best evidence that an object is indeed ivory.

Here are some resources that describe how to identify ivory and similar materials:
https://www.antiquers.com/threads/ivory-references.69023/

 

Hi , thanks for your input. Like you said it’s very difficult to find any surface large enough to see any schreger marks , I have found an area with some kind of lines though ( at the bottom of the curved bit ) as I can’t upload an hd photo I doubt it’s visible.

 

Here are some photographs showing what Schreger lines can look like - sometimes as cross-hatching, sometimes as a sort of watered effect depending on orientation. You are in the best position to look for them on your object, as it is often helpful to tip the object in the light in order to see the subtle effect.