Antique silver plated creamer "Norseman" .... from a cruise line? or club?

Is it OK to post about a silver plated item here in the silver section?

This old creamer manufactured by Collis & Co. dates to between 1847 and 1888 (from what I found due to the address on the bottom) I'm just guessing that it was from a boat because of the broad base. Is this reasonable to assume? Or is this a normal shape for a creamer from this period?

I found three documented ships with the Norseman name - only two would overlap the dates that this could have been made: one belonging to Union Line and another (the line wasn't mentioned that I remember) that was a side-wheel steam ship in Canada.

Where do you all think this is from?

 

Absolutely!

 

Hmmmm. The Union Line one was a colliery ship (carrying coal.) No mention of passenger service, although I suppose the officers' mess might have had "nice" stuff at table.

 

This was what I found in reference to Union Line ...


"NORSEMAN 1865
1,245 gross tons, 262.8ft x 32.2ft, iron hull. single screw, speed 9 knots.
Built 1865 by Charles Langley & Co, Deptford, London for the Union Line
which operated the mail / passenger service between Southampton and South
African ports, usually with a call at Plymouth. 1873 sold to Western &
Brazilian Telegraph Co, London and converted to a cable layer. 1888 laid the
cable across the River Plate. 1892 suffered serious storm damage and offered
for sale.1896 sold to A. C. S. Springer, London and then transferred to M.
S. Springer & Zoon, Amsterdam. 1898 scrapped.

The book "Union-Castle Line" by Peter Newell, ISBN 0-953429-14-8 contains a
photo of this ship and should be available on inter library loan."

Now, I'll search for something about colliery ships (learned a new term - Thanks!)

 

Ok. Union had at least 2 ships named Norseman during the period you suspect. Plus a third (out of the period) under the Union-Castle name. I'll go get a link to their ships list.

 

Nevermind. I found the additional link you had (obviously) seen and see the error in my earlier information.

 

I've got no business getting in on this thread, but thought I'd add that the following website has 2 Norsemans listed for the Union Steamship Company. In 1899 it merged with the Castle Line forming the Union-Castle Mail SS Co. One of them is the 1866 one that the OP mentions in reply #4. No doubt you have seen this, but if not....

... Vessel .... | Built | ... Years in Service .... |...Tons
Norseman (1) |1866 |1873 sold to J. Heugh converted to a cable ship.|1,386
Norseman (2) |1890 |S.A.coastal service, 1893 sold to W.Bailey, Hull. | 938

http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/union.shtml

Here's a picture of the sinking of the Norseman of the Dominion Line in 1897.
http://www.theshipslist.com/pictures/norseman1897.shtml

If you scroll down this page to the list of ships, you will see that the Dominion Line had 2 Norseman ships; however, 1 is too late to by yours and the other is pushing the limits also.
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/dominion.shtml

I was hoping to ID this ship by its Logo, but no luck so far. Wish I knew what was written around the bottom of the garter logo.

BTW, there is/was a Norseman, Australia that had a railroad line in the mid 1800s. I'm not sure if the railroad line was called the Norseman or not.

--- Susan

 

Now why would you have no business on this thread, Susan? LOL. I've discovered this is called "crowd-sourcing" when a lot of people get together on the internet to do research.

 

I'm not convinced it came from a ship. If it had, it ought to say SS or RMS or whatever. That's a garter belt I think. Not unusual to have a wide base.

 

Crowdsourcing -- thanks for the definition, Bev!

I'm with Bear on this one -- maybe look for Norseman hotel somewhere in Britain at that time (and I'll leave the crowdsourcing to others for that, LOL!).

 

Or a pub, even.

 

Or maybe a train....

 

Replies to several:

Ladybranch: Susan, you most certainly DO have business in this thread. You've offered a great deal of info ... including the mention of the word "garter" logo.

Bev: Yes, crowd-sourcing ... we used to call it brainstorming when I was in school! The more opinions the better ... in my opinion!

Bear: You too mentioned the garter. I was not aware of this symbol ... and (I'm going to show you an example of my complete ignorance here) I was wondering why there was that loop on the life-preserver. The broad base and life-preserver were what lead me to think "boat".

Thanks to you all! I will now start exploring other directions, although I'm not sure that it really matters much as far as adding value to this piece ... being well-worn silver plate ... just curious to see what may turn up.

 

"Crowd sourcing" So that is what this is called, good definition! Maybe my reply helped nudge Bev, Bear & Wendy into joining the crowd/party!

Waving to you 3. A wave to Bake and a big hello welcome wave to quirkygirl!

>That's a garter belt I think.<
I thought so also. In my reply I mentioned hoping to ID that logo to a particular ship. At least a couple of shipping lines used a garter like Cunard and a Pacific something or other. I have had no more luck on that logo maritime-wise

I did try Norseman on possible RR. No luck there either. In my reply I did mention a possible Norseman rail line in Australia, but now believe that connection was a rail line running between a town called Norseman and somewhere else. I believe at the moment there is a Norseman rail line in England, but think it only dates no earlier than the 20th century.

Tried hotels. There are or have been several Norseman motels like one now in Maine. There is a Norseman Inn in Scotland. I think at Wick or near Wick, whatever that is. I don't believe it is old enough.

I did find a clipper ship built in the 1850s called Norseman. It was built by the Cunningham Bros. of California. It seems it was involved in the China trade. It disappeared from ship registry in the 1890s presumably sold to someplace in Asia. I read somewhere, for the life of me can't find it now, it was leased to Britain for a short period for transporting troops, goods or whatever to the Crimean War?? If it was built in the USA, I doubt it would have a garter for it's logo???

http://books.google.com/books?id=k3lkAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=norseman&source=bl&ots=paGRIdcXbU&sig=PZKYdidc5G4IqTEDDz_xDUJtMCA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0qSEVPePBo3asATbqICICg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q= norseman&f=false

Finallyyyy I found the reference to the Crimean War and this clipper ship.
The reference about the Crimean War and the Norseman is on page 289 of the book The Clipper Ship Era, Chapter XIX.

"CHAPTER XIX
"LAST YEARS OF THE AMERICAN CLIPPER SHIP ERA —
SUMMARY OP CALIFORNIA PASSAGES

"DURING the Crimean War a large number of
merchant ships, many of which were Ameri-
can, were chartered by the British and French
Governments to carry troops, but when peace was
declared in 1856 and this demand for tonnage ceased,
it was found that there were more ships afloat than
could find profitable employment, or indeed em-
ployment of any kind.

"Only eight ships were added to the California
fleet in 1856 — the Alarm, Euterpe, Flying Mist, Flor-
ence, Intrepid, Mary L. Sutton, Norseman, and the
second Witch of the Wave. These were all hand-
some medium clippers, and possessed what is so
sadly lacking in sailing ships of the present day
— style, distinction. The Florence was built by
Samuel Hall, Jr., who had succeeded his father as
a ship-builder and continued in the same yard at
East Boston. She was owned by Captain R. B.
Forbes and others of Boston. Captain Dumaresq
commanded her and also owned an interest in her
until his death in 1860. As Captain Forbes used
to say, 'He was the prince of sea captains.'"

The above is on page 289 of the actual book, but page 364 of the online file book. Move the slider, whatever it is called, at the bottom of the page to 364. It should open the book to page 288-289 with the above text.
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924020891416#page/n363/mode/2up

Gee, on rereading the above, I now wonder if the Norseman was included in those leased by Britain and France because she was built in 1856 and the war ended in 1856. I doubt she was one of those leased. I should delete the above, but will keep it for any interest purposes.

--- Susan

 

You did indeed say garter and I missed that.

Quirkygirl, it's a heraldic device or emblem often used in crests, coats of arms and such.

Here: http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpglossg.htm

 

Sorry - meant to say. The train thing could be an engine name, rather than a line.

 

Well, a garter in pottery usually means Staffordshire -- dunno if that might limit the search a bit.

 

As to the garter thing, I got a question for Bear or anyone up on British stuff and such. Is there any special permission a British company needs in order to use a garter as their logo, trademark? I suspect there isn't, but as The Order of the Garter is an honor bestowed, selected, invested or whatever by the Sovereign, I thought possibly the symbol in Great Britain couldn't be used willy nilly.

I don't think??? the garter logo (a garter topped by a crown) for the Cunard line has a SS or RMS because it is a company and not a specific ship. On that thought I tried looking for a Norseman Maritime company. Needless to say, I didn't find any. Anywho, while doing that search found what may be another Norseman ship, a yacht. It was the 1st ship to pass through the newly opened Manchester Ship Canal 1/1/1894. That canal was opened in January with the Norseman leading a parade of vessels. The official celebration was in May 1894. Seems it was a big deal for it got Queen Vic out of the house/palace. She attended the May celebration. Here's a little about the canal opening and the Norseman.

"The formal opening of the Canal was conducted by Queen Victoria in May 1894, but before this royal visit an earlier opening had taken place that year on New Years' Day which was just as well celebrated.

"At 10 o'clock, on the sounding of a steam whistle, a procession of vessels led by Samuel Platt's grand steam yacht 'Norseman' carrying the Company Directors set out on a journey along the Canal from Latchford. Thousands had travelled to see the New Year event and on the signal of the whistle, as described by Sir Bosdin Leech, 'a mighty sound of cheers was given, but this was quickly drowned out by the combined efforts of scores of steam whistles and sirens, it was perfect pandemonium''

Link to the above with a pic of the Norseman:
http://www.canalarchive.org.uk/stories/pages.php?enum=TE127&pnum=1&maxp=2

and this painting of her:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sidpickle/8788216253/in/photostream/

Quirky, I doubt you will ever be able to nail down what the Norseman was: maritime, railroad, hotel, etc... related. At least you know the maker and a timeframe for this Electro-plated German Silver creamer.

--- Susan

 

Not a garter for Staffs, hon, but a Staffordshire knot!

Susan, no, you don't need permission. If you want to have a proper trademark, you register it - same applies to a coat of arms, and that latter is trickier and longer to do.

 

TYVM for correcting me, Bear -- Staffordshire knot is what I was thinking of -- where was my brain -- gone walkabout as usual! There is a garter in my Scottish clan's crest.