Featured Unique Coat of Arms Seal from Poland - Three Axes and an Oak Tree

Discussion in 'Antique Discussion' started by Barn Owl, Jun 2, 2020.

  1. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    I've started to collect antique seals. I splurged on this one, drawn to the amethyst (or amethyst glass) color, and the very unique crest. I'm still trying to decide if I should attempt removing the seal or just polish up the brass and find a new handle for it. I have a Georgian era pinchbeck fob that has a loose stone, so I'm thinking of switching out the two.

    This seal came from Wielen, Poland, which is apparently at the historical border with Prussia. The seal is mounted in brass and appears to be dug.

    I am not familiar with coat of arms and was hoping it might stand out to one of you. I already searched for coats of arms with three axes and a cut tree, to no luck. I wonder if the crowned lion is of significance.


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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
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  2. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Is What It IS! But NEVER BORED!

    NOT a clue, but it's VERRRRY COOL!!!!!!!!!! DH & I both have Signet rings with His family coat of arms & I have my Mother's coat of arms....sigh...but only have so many fingers.............!:rolleyes::rolleyes::happy: Love the reclining lion!!!
     
  3. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    The reclining lion is the main reason I bought it. I was stunned by the detail. I love signet rings and seals, especially those with coat of arms. I bought this, first thinking about turning the seal into a ring, but I think that will be out of my price range currently.
     
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  4. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure what I think about this. Did you clean the matrix (the engraved part)? What do you think the handle was made of? Iron? The matrix looks pristine; the mount for the matrix is oxidized but intact; the handle looks like angry wolverines have chewed on it. In the closeup of the matrix, is the blue a reflection from something or is that how the stone looks?

    It's a very intelligent looking recumbent lion.
     
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  5. bluumz

    bluumz Quite Busy

    A lion couchant in heraldic terms, I believe?

    I just had an enjoyable hour down the google rabbit hole but found nothing helpful about to whom your seal may have belonged.

    Per hallofnames.org.uk:
    Tree: "The tree is a symbol of antiquity and strength... a tree stump or tree trunk may be used as a symbol of regrowth and rebirth, especially when it is borne with branches sprouting new leaves."

    Per Mistholme, the axe appears to be a headsman's axe (aka slaughterer's axe).

    Screenshot (42).png

    Of course, this stuff may only apply to British heraldry? No idea!
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
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  6. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    That was the word I wanted. The combination of the axes with the lopped off tree had me thinking in terms of the ability to conquer/overcome things, but sure looks like it's sprouting new life. If this is an Eastern European family crest, we might have to go down some very deep, winding rabbit holes to have any chance of finding it.

    I'm uneasy about this piece.
     
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  7. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    I actually haven't gotten it yet... I should have clarified that I am considering doing these restorations once it arrives. I suspect that the matrix was cleaned, since the seller was able to make a clean impression in the clay or putty.

    The handle is wood according to the seller, with the mounting in brass or copper. The way the wood is decomposed (and the fact that the other items the seller has listed appear to be mostly dug finds) leads me to believe that it was probably unearthed. I can't imagine this kind of damage to the wood resulting from trauma, without it also damaging the matrix itself. I think the blue may just be a reflection... Sorry, I probably should wait to post these things until I actually get the pieces, but I get excited to share my finds right away.

    Thank you! I've spent a lot of time already researching it too; I found a dictionary about heraldic crests, but it only referred to English crests. I haven't had much luck yet for Eastern European ones. I found this page, but I didn't see this crest on it:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topór...axe",under the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
    By uneasy, do you mean that you think that it might be fake?
     
  8. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Believe me, I know about this. I don't post many items, but probably half start out when I don't yet have them in hand because I'm dying to know what I took a chance on.

    I'm afraid that's my worry. Now you say seller has lots of things that look dug, I like it even less. Is seller on line? Would you want to post a link so we can see other offerings? You wouldn't make the handle for a piece like this out of some soft, cheap wood. I don't know why a personalized desk seal would end up in the ground for an extended period of time. A fob seal might, but a desk seal? It feels artfully aged to me but would like to hear some other opinions.
     
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  9. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    Researching "oak stump," I came across this in reference to the Von Boetticher family, recognized as nobility by the Lithuanian-Wilna government in 1801. I know that Vilnius was part of Poland for a while after the fall of the Romanov dynasty. I wonder if this could bear a relation...
    upload_2020-6-2_20-50-38.png
     
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  10. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

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  11. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    I immediately tend to second-guess what I buy, especially if it is an online purchase. I haven't been able to go to many thrift stores lately with social distancing, and I'm on the computer everyday because of freelance writing, so I've been spending way too much time browsing sale sites...
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  12. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Must have it mixed up with the lion of Judah.
     
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  13. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Judaica coming out of Poland also makes me uneasy, & seller has quite a number of items tagged that way. This one really sets off alarm bells for me:

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    http://www.ebay.com/itm/133413135767

    If this looks this way because it was lost & buried, how was it rediscovered? If it wasn't lost & buried, how did it end up looking like that? An awful lot of the metal items that are Judaica, such as dreidels, look as though they have been buried. They all have a suspiciously even coating of oxidation. Not sure if I'm more bothered by the idea that these things have been artificially aged or the thought that they could genuinely have been the possessions of Polish Jews.

    I realize seller's listings in Polish may have more detailed information, & does have a 100% positive feedback rating. Recent satisfied customers have bought mainly tokens/jetons & dog tags. Your seal is not Judaica in any way that I can tell. Would a Jewish family have been granted arms in Poland? Seller only gives it as speculation. I can't imagine what conditions would have ravaged the wood handle while leaving the matrix so unscarred. Must have been angry wolverines.

    Even if it is glass, even if it is not buried treasure, it is still very pretty, you like it & price was not exorbitant. If you can turn it into something you can wear or otherwise enjoy (would it fit in the other mount you have?), you done good.
     
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  14. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I wouldn't have bought it if it was decorated with a Star of David or Hebrew letters, because I know that there are a lot of fake Judaica items floating around from out of Poland and I'd feel uncomfortable buying something that was Jewish and dug from the ground. I just assumed it was labeled as Judaica to draw attention to the listing, and that the seller might have found it while digging up the dog tags and coins.

    Apparently, there are European Jewish heraldic crests, which I had no idea about until now. But I Wikipedia-ed it, and it appears that there were no Jewish noble families in Poland. But if it was Jewish, why adorn the crown with a cross shape?

    To me, the wooden handle looks like its decayed. If it was buried in damp soil, perhaps the wood disintegrated. If the handle was attached to the metal base by pitch, the adhesive could have preserved the bottom part, while leaving the upper part of the handle more vulnerable to moisture and liable for breakage.

    I'm not familiar with intaglio carvings that much; I only have the other heraldic fob seal and a few common Roman warrior intaglios. But would something like this be mass produced? The stippling of the background, along with the finer details of the crest, seem more complex than what I would expect for a mass produced piece. And since the crest is unknown, I feel like it would be less worthwhile to produce (and artificially age) than fake Roman centurion rings, or crests that can be easily found. The other items the seller is selling

    I won't be devastated if it turns out to be new. $83 is a lot for me, but I purchase all my finds with money I make from selling other finds, so I imagine it as a trade.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  15. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    I had the same observations & thoughts. Just spent a bit of time poking around in the records of the impressions made by James Tassie. His fanciest productions were impressions in glass paste of the same color as the original gem. However, although the catalogue of his work numbers more than 15000 pieces, & he did take impressions from other kinds of seals, even ones that just said 'Mary' or things of that sort, he does not seem to have replicated any that were armorial. I do not know if this was a choice he made or if it was that families did not want the family crest turned into something commercial. If Tassie didn't do it, it probably wasn't done.

    My first message originally started by saying that I was inclined to amethyst for exactly the reasons of why would such a thing be mass produced & the excellent condition compared to other parts, then became concerned about authenticity & scrapped it. When you get it, & we find out what color the stone really is, we'll have a better idea.
     
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  16. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    I'm actually wondering if it's possible that the matrix is not original to the setting. If it is indeed amethyst and not glass, perhaps the seal was taken from its gold or gold-filled mount and set in base metal, either because the original mount was melted down during a time of economic instability or because it was damaged.
     
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  17. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    As maddening as it is to wait, think you'll have to wait until it arrives to have a better idea of what you bought. BTW, seller description says it has not been cleaned. Another seal & a signet ring have been added among latest new threads. We're on a roll.
     
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  18. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    It arrived today! :) To answer your question: the blue undertone visible in the pictures is in fact really there. Interestingly, the stone used in the seal appears to be faceted on the rear side, so that when the light catches those inner facets, it flashes blue.
     
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  19. Bronwen

    Bronwen Well-Known Member

    Now I'm really mystified. Highlights in amethyst are usually more reddish, not blue. Just to rule out something for me, when you can, check it with UV light. And of course we want detailed photos. I imagine you wriggling with excitement. :)
     
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  20. Barn Owl

    Barn Owl Well-Known Member

    Sure! I need to find where I put my UV light. I'll get pictures to you later today :) I am definitely excited! I'm going to message the seller to see if they can tell me where in Poland it came from.
     
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