Need Help w/Antique Worn Leather Conservation and Conditioning

hi everyone. i recently found this very cool old Wells Fargo Mailbag. I've been in contact with Heritage Auctions about this piece and they're interested in it as an auction piece. it seems, no one has ever seen a mailbag like this with a stamp indicating it was actually patented by Wells Fargo & Co in 1859. anyway, it has several elements that make it somewhat better than most old mailbags and i do want to sell it. the biggest problem with this piece is, the leather portion, both top and bottom are worn to such an extent that the outer layer or finish is powdery. if you brush it against your clothes it leaves a brown stain of leather dust. the leather is still thick and fairly soft and pliable, but i'm concerned about the dryness of the outer layer and sending it off where it's going to be handled by a lot of people. the finish needs to be sealed and stabilized. i'm wondering if anyone here has experience with old leather? i've spoken to several people locally and they've suggested Neats Foot Oil, Saddle Soap as well as various other leather conditioners. I was thinking of just spraying it with Scotchguard for leather too. i'm hoping someone here knows a bit about leather conservation. i believe this was probably originally vegetable tanned. any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated...thanks

 

Yes, I have a suggestion. Don't touch it. Let a new buyer decide what restoration steps s/he would like to take. Your fiddling with it will damage its integrity and reduce its value.

Debora

 

These both appear to be a tad older because of the leather and/or rivets.

https://live.naabid.com/online-auct...-fargo-riveted-leather-stagecoach-bag-2098086

https://holabirdamericana.liveauctiongroup.com/item.aspx?i=21089052&mobile=0

Debora

 

If you post close-up photographs of the marks, perhaps we can help you date it. The Arizona Territory plaque would put it at 1877-ish to 1912-ish but it doesn't appear to be an original element.

Debora

 

The AZ tag is a nice wild west touch.
Very similar elements were still in use in 1943.
https://www.somethinghappens-dressing.com/view/item/000000003741

 

hi, i've looked at those and a few others online. none have them have the patent for Wells Fargo & Co as well as the date stamped on them, both on the leather and on the canvas. my guess is they were bootlegs in their day(150 years ago or more), manufactured with enough variations in their design that they were able to get around the patent laws more or less. these are what survive. i also think they're somewhat cooler looking, but the patent stamp is something nobody has seen before. this is what they told me at Heritage. Wells Fargo began deliveries in Arizona in 1870. also, the Railway Express Agency came into being in 1918. Wells Fargo was folded into that agency as were other express agencies of that era.

 

So that stamp above is a "patent." And it reads PATD Wells Faro & Co. followed by the date? October 8, 1859?

Debora

 

My first recommendation concerning the leather would be to follow Debora's advice and do nothing to it. All too often home remedies end up doing more harm than good. If you are intending to send it to Heritage you might ask them if they would prefer it to be left as is.

From your description, it sounds like it is a type of leather deterioration known as "red rot", although it does not look as bad as some examples I have encountered on antique harness leather, as well as some leather bookbindings.

In the latter half of the 19th century, and on into the early 20th century, the tanning industry introduced different tanning agents in their search for ways to speed up the tanning process. These new treatments proved to be less durable than traditional methods, and more sensitive to the acidic air pollutants that became widespread with the increasing use of coal and other fossil fuels during this period. It was a bad combination that resulted in this form of reddish, powdery deterioration.

If you are set on doing something, and feel it is worth the risk, please do not use any of the products you suggested. Saddle soap is designed for leather in good condition. Neatsfoot oil would most likely darken the leather, changing its appearance dramatically. Both of these products have the potential to create more problems later. I am not familiar with the Scotchguard, but I am sure it is designed for modern leathers, and not historic, deteriorating leather.

You might consider simply brushing the leather with a soft makeup brush to remove the loose particles. If you feel you must go further, you might try "Cellugel Leather Consolidant", which is a product developed for use on leather bookbindings suffering from red rot. It should be applied in thin layers, not slathered on. And it is always good practice to try it on a small area first to see if it causes any unwanted changes. It can be purchased from TALAS -

https://www.talasonline.com/Celluge...juXmINzg4W-6rcJJ_EW1il3LubM7fR-ANOf0ZfcCaoNiX

 

thank you for this. i'm actually pretty sure this leather was once darker before this damage settled in. you can see areas where it's still dark and more similar to the old leather you see from other artifacts. most of my experience is with vintage leather jackets from the 30s through the 60s. i have seen old leather jackets with this same problem, but i've never actually handled them because i just wouldn't bother. i assume they're not worth the trouble. this "red rot" sounds exactly like what is happening with this piece.

i should also say, when i first contacted Heritage, they got back to me immediately. their guy that specializes in Americana was pretty excited about it. then i emailed him back, explaining this problem with the leather and that's basically the last i heard from them. that's why i would like to stabilize the leather. it would help its marketability. i'm sorry if that offends some of you, but this is how i make my living and if i can turn a damaged, but historically significant artifact into something that's worth a few bucks, that's what i'm going to do. what i don't want to do is, of course, cause damage. if this was brain tanned leather, i wouldn't even consider touching it.

 

that's what i believe it says, although i'm pretty sure it's Oct 6, 1859. what i'm assuming is, a patent remains in force for 20 years. so this was probably manufactured sometime in the 1870s. but this is all a guess. i haven't found anyone that's ever seen a bag with this patent stamp on it. i contacted the Wells Fargo museum, and they are basically worthless. i don't think it's a real musem. i think it's more of a promotional thing for their bank. they got back to me with an email saying they don't offer appraisals(which i wasn't asking for) and i should contact an auctioneer(which i did). very frustrating.

 

I've been in contact with Heritage Auctions about this piece and they're interested in it as an auction piece. it seems, no one has ever seen a mailbag like this with a stamp

Please let us know what they say after you tell them you've cleaned it up and fixed the leather issue.........

 

" it would help its marketability". .......... you don't know that for certain.

"i'm sorry if that offends some of you," .... not at all... it's yours to play around with as you see fit ! We just offer up opinions , based on how we've made our livings.

You sound offended , that they haven't yet answered your email , for reasons you can only speculate at ...... & I for one ... having dealt with several auction houses...as a way to make 'my' living.... don't believe that the present condition of the bag, is one of those reasons.

 

At this point, there is no provable correlation between the patent stamp and the bag. Some bored Wells Fargo clerk could have been amusing himself with an old stamp he found in a drawer. It's random and multiple placement might suggest that's the case.

Debora

 

You know... I don't think that says PATD. I think it says PAID. This dates to 1870.

Debora

 

that has occurred to me. but, if it is "PAID" why the date which is stamped both on the canvas and in the leather? it just seems an odd place to put a "PAID" statement. i'm not saying it isn't PAID, just that it doesn't make a lot of sense. also, why the date? i can say for certain, statements of patent at this time were put on the things that were patented in order to uphold the rights of the patent. that's why the patent date appears on a pair of Levi's, for instance. if you look at the bag Roaring20s uploaded, which is very similar, but still different, there's a patent number stamped in between where the handle is attached to the bag.

the Levi's patent is instructive in this case too. what Levi Strauss actually patented in 1873 was the use of copper rivets at points of high stress on a pair of work pants. no one else could use copper rivets for 20 years. there were other manufacturers in SF competing with Levi's but they had to use other materials for this same function for 20 years. Boss of the Road was one such manufacturer. they eventually went out of business because people just thought the Levi's were better. they definitely looked better.

like i say, i don't know whether it's "PAID" or "PATD" but it would appear this bag was actually used by Wells Fargo. and, in truth, you can't be sure the other bags you see online that purport to be Wells Fargo bags were actually used by Wells Fargo or just stamped with a logo sometime after the fact in order to add value to the item. in the 19th century there were a lot of express companies. most of them are forgotten. stenciling WELLS FARGO onto an old mailbag 50 or 60 years ago would be one way to add value to an otherwise not so valuable thing.

 

hi, i'm not committed to doing anything to the bag. i'm waiting to hear back from Heritage and will probably email them again. i do have to say, this Cellugel product does sound like exactly the thing i'm looking for and i'm extremely happy to learn of it. i have always personally enjoyed doing vintage leather restoration. i can't tell you how many amazing vintage leather jackets i've brought back to life and sold for good money. leather items that look like junk to some, are things of beauty to others.

 

Are you referring to this as a patent number? Seller says it reads:

J.Q.M.D.
1943
E.N.S.

Debora

 

Perhaps the date has something to do with this: "In 1859, there was a crisis when Congress failed to pass the annual post office appropriation bill, thereby leaving the post office with no way to pay for the Overland Mail Company's services."

Debora

 

could be.